1965 Nut/bolt/washers

[richardACS]

In the assembly of my 1965 ACS I would like to re use the fixings of that period, the new ones available these days do not match in overall size or appearance.

My question therefore is two fold: Is there a supplier who does source shall we call them '65 period style fixings?

or

Might someone have some gash boxes from the period and I could get these replated?

and would be pleased to hear from others as to how they have gone about this?

[whistler]

Having just restored a 1965 build SDL I re-used bolts/screws where I could but bought structural bolts new from Minispares. If the new bolts were 'on show' I sprayed them with Supertrol as a protective measure. The bolts changed colour, giving the look of original bolts.

[Peter Laidler]

Good to see another believer in that super protection Supertrol 1. The best protection since Durex....

[Mudhen]

Never heard of Supertrol before - I assume it fully dries so as to not collect contaminants?

My son spent a bunch of time during the re-install of his R53 MINIs engine heating bolts, dipping them in oil - not sure how long it will last and it turned them black so I wouldn't want to do it on my '65...the ones we didn't treat turned to rust in just a few months!!

Pat

[Peter Laidler]

Quenching in hot oil is a form of carbon blacking. Used in some specialised engineering as a form of parkerisation or phosphating.

As for SUPERTROL, it's gods gift to mini owners who want the steel to last forever. I bought a brand new last-of-the-line Rover Cooper Sport in 2001, stripped it and absolutely flooded it with a zillion gallons of this stuff. The evaporants that enable you to spray or paint it on evaporate after a day or so and you're left with a sticky layer of virtually impenetrable grease. Assembled up again and it's still rust free and like brand new. That is Supertrol

[Mudhen]

Sounds like I should have bathed in it 40 years ago...

Thanks!

[111Robin]

Quenching in hot oil is a form of carbon blacking. Used in some specialised engineering as a form of parkerisation or phosphating.

As for SUPERTROL, it's gods gift to mini owners who want the steel to last forever. I bought a brand new last-of-the-line Rover Cooper Sport in 2001, stripped it and absolutely flooded it with a zillion gallons of this stuff. The evaporants that enable you to spray or paint it on evaporate after a day or so and you're left with a sticky layer of virtually impenetrable grease. Assembled up again and it's still rust free and like brand new. That is Supertrol

Unfortunately it is now shite as they changed the formula such that it doesn't flow in any way at all, it just sticks onto the surface it touches and dries hard like caramel. Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 is a far superior product.

[Spider]

If the original fasteners that are in good condition, but just tatty or maybe lightly rusty, I have them re-plated.

Most plating shops don't like or won't take in car parts, usually because they receive them greasy and generally cruddy. I wire wheel all parts before taking them.

[richardACS]

Thank you for all your tips and experiences, structural fixings I will fit new, the older stuff I hope will plate well.

I've been practising zinc plating for the past couple of years with mixed results but will continue to persevere the difficult ones are where the rust is pitted and the lock nuts where the plastic lock ring is already threaded. As the car arrived in boxes I have yet to discover which are missing.

I'm hoping I might be able to raid others gash boxes.

Interesting how the fixings in general have developed from this period, particularly little use of flat washers and no use of spring washers. BMW seem to use a slightly squashed nut particularly on 1/2 (13mm) fixings...

Would also be helpful to know what the plating finish would have been back in 65 - cadmium? zinc/yellow passivate?

[Peter Laidler]

I think that cadmium was the norm for the motor industry. Althoigh I can't understand the need to use old fixings when you can use new, modern and otherwise identical nuts, bolts, screws and washers. Stainless too. And if it's painted, then just paint it.

[mk1]

I rarely agree with Peter But in this case, I do. I cannot imagine any circumstances when I'd choose to use ratty old used fasteners. If I am doing a resto, I would NEVER think of reusing them, re-plated or not.

If anyone wants to pick me up on the "new" nuts & bolts fitted to one of my cars, they are welcome to

Having said that, my giant "scrap" nuts & bolts box must have hundreds & hundreds of genuine 1960's fasteners in it, if you want to come over & sort through them for the correct ones, you are most welcome.

[MiNiKiN]

I think that cadmium was the norm for the motor industry. Althoigh I can't understand the need to use old fixings when you can use new, modern and otherwise identical nuts, bolts, screws and washers. Stainless too. And if it's painted, then just paint it.

I prefer to use old original fasteners wherever possible** just because they look different, i.e because of originality. It is the icing on the cake of a restoration for the ultra so to speak.

Some of them I had replated (zink-plated, which IMHO looks to silverish shiny nowadays - the yellow chromate is not available here anymore ). The engine bolts I cold-blued until I noticed cold-blueing offers little protection against rust. So I now hot-blue them in linseed oil.
I have to say that the Innocenti engines are painted black, so black bolts is the way to in that case.

Interesting how the fixings in general have developed from this period, particularly little use of flat washers and no use of spring washers. ...

A note re split spring washers: I use them for originality reasons. They offer NO protection against loosening whatsoever. in other words: they are pointless.
So what are working bolt retentions to ensure lasting thread pre-load?
A) the CORRECT tightening torque with fitting surface (oiled or dry - makes a huge difference) - AND AFTER TIGHT COMES LOOSE!
B) conical serrated spring washers (with matching torque figure as per A) above)
like these: https://www.schnorr-group.com/en/produc ... ers-type-s
C) Nord-Lock washers (https://www.nord-lock.com/en-gb/nord-lock/) with matching torque figure
D) Loctite or similar liquid thread locks with matching torque figure

So the base line is, that the correct torque prevents a fastener from coming loose! If you believe in it or not!

**If they seem original factory fitted and not over-tightened the umpteenth time by some spanner monkey w/o a torque wrench.

[MiNiKiN]

Having said that, my giant "scrap" nuts & bolts box must have hundreds & hundreds of genuine 1960's fasteners in it, if you want to come over & sort through them for the correct ones, you are most welcome.

I wish I had such a treasure chest of old bolts in imperial sizes ♥

[mk1]

Why does a spring washer offer "no protection against loosening whatsoever"?

[mk1]

Having said that, my giant "scrap" nuts & bolts box must have hundreds & hundreds of genuine 1960's fasteners in it, if you want to come over & sort through them for the correct ones, you are most welcome.

I wish I had such a treasure chest of old bolts in imperial sizes ♥

Its an old ammo box full to overflowing with imperial fasteners from the dawn of time measuring something like 700 x 500 x 500mm It's too heavy to lift

[Polarsilver]

Just for a balance to this subject .. Having worked long term in Structural Engineering with OE manufactures of Mobile & Crawler Cranes where structural integrity matters, i cannot advise that you re-use OE Fixings such as nuts bolts spring washers etc .. because you have no idea of their condition unless you X ray or submit to a structural testing which will then render that item beyond use.. can agree each to there own on this subject but suggesting to think long & hard about potential consequences beyond keeping originality.
Original Fixings in a none structural area .. yes i am pleased to reuse an original fixing.. my one re-use is the two tower bolts on the Pickup front subframe these Bolts are not in shear so they got inspected & refitted

[MiNiKiN]

Why does a spring washer offer "no protection against loosening whatsoever"?

I quote as this explains in better english than I would be able to offer:

When a lock washer is fully compressed, as it is in a joint that is holding its design preload, the lock washer behaves exactly like a flat washer with a crack in it. Or, if you prefer, a spring that has gone solid. It no longer acts like a spring in further compression and its stiffness, as it relates to the joint performance is determined by the modulus of elasticity of the material.
If the joint loosens sufficiently so that the lock washer acts like a spring again then the joint has lost its design preload and the only tension left in the bolt is whatever small amount that is provided by the lock washer. It doesn't matter. The joint has already failed. The lock washer may postpone the inevitable departure of the nut from the end of the bolt.

or NASA:

NASA Fastener Design Manual RP-1228:
The lockwasher serves as a spring whilel the bolt is being tightened. However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a lockwasher of this type is usless for locking.

There is many more useless "torque prevailing thread locks" comprehensively listed on the WÜRTH web-site:
https://www.wuerth-industrie.com/web/en ... irksam.php

Wherever there is any sort of vibration or judder:, any of the above listed will fail. Just take my word as a former warranty engineer of a rolling stock manufacturer. We are employing a whole battalion of engineers calculating bolted connections in every detail to prevent them failing in service.

Though I must admit I am sometimes surprised how old design bolted connections lasted by simply underwhelming them, i.e. over-engineering the connection.

[MiNiKiN]

Having said that, my giant "scrap" nuts & bolts box must have hundreds & hundreds of genuine 1960's fasteners in it, if you want to come over & sort through them for the correct ones, you are most welcome.

I wish I had such a treasure chest of old bolts in imperial sizes ♥

Its an old ammo box full to overflowing with imperial fasteners from the dawn of time measuring something like 700 x 500 x 500mm It's too heavy to lift

This might overwhelm me anyway as I tend to have occasional sorting attacks. "Separate each size and type into their own little box" or OCD in short

[Peter Laidler]

If you really need to know about harsh vibration and shudder and all the other sorts of trials and tribulations that nuts and bolts and split spring washers go through, you'd do no better that to look at a big gun platform or heavy machine gun structures such as tanks. I don't know a lot about tanks, but I know a little about the mountings. There, failure is NOT an option. If they're good enough for that application, then they're good enough for my BMC - and Rover - mini, believe me. But NOT used ones.....

[swifty]

The bolts that pass through a mini bonnet hinge with the brass washers also have a split washer . You can do them up hand tight and open the bonnet a hundred times and the bolt will not come loose . Same goes for the boot lid straps . Now take off that spring washer and I will guarantee the bolt will come loose and the nut will fall off . Therefore to my way of thinking the split washers do work . …. Shirley