Should Cooper S front panel be black?

[minitravellerman]

As the topic title asks, should the section of front panel behind the grille on a Cooper S be black or body colour?
I have had numerous answers for both options?
Thanks

[mini_surfari]

Have a flick through this

http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31762

[mk1]

The answer to your question is 100% YES!

[minitravellerman]

Thanks guys. I knew I had seen a post similar before but couldn’t find when I was searching. Masking tape and black paint will be out soon then.

[Andrew1967]

Bloody hope so as I had to get the masking tape and black paint out a few weeks back. But yes, that is correct.

Dont forget the black battery box as well

[Cammsjb]

Mine is a MK2 but yes.

[Ross]

HI Having been around Mk1 Cooper S and owning a total of 6 of them at one time or another over a period of more than 50 odd years here in New Zealand I don't recall ever seeing any sign of black paint anywhere near grille surrounds EXCEPT for diagonal grille siffener which was usually painted satin black.Whether this was an ommission on export casrs or not I don't know but I doubt it, but its possible it may have been done on Mk2's. I sometimes look in complete wonder at some of the questions on "detailing" on these cars asked on the forum. I also wonder where some of these alleged "facts" actually originate? It makes no sense whatsoever if you think of about it rationally. If you offer up the slatted grille of either Austin or Morris marque within the space-once fitted any sign of any black would be virtually invisible so what is the point of it anyway? There is already a black painted wing section behind the slats either end. Surely it's far more important to have the car saved as a runner in good condition and order, than whether every nut, bolt and screw is the correct colour? Come on guys enjoy these little suckers for what they are and stop trying to make them "better than the factory" (because goodness knows that wouldn't be too hard would it?) If any of the Anorak Brigade are ever sniffing or turning up their noses at detail on your car-ask them to produce theirs and watch them raise dust as they clear the area! Treat this kind of stuff for what it is-just faffing about!

[Peter Laidler]

Oooooooo, Ross..... I think that you might have bitten off a bit more than you can chew regarding the black-behind-the-grille painted section. I don't ever recall seeing it either. But there is factual and photographic evidence that behind the grilles WERE painted black. Not on my Mk2 it wasn't. But there you go. The evidence, certainly for the Mk1's, is that nobody knows why but they were painted - black!
Pete the Pom, ('68 Wahine survivor too!

[Pete]

HI Having been around Mk1 Cooper S and owning a total of 6 of them at one time or another over a period of more than 50 odd years here in New Zealand I don't recall ever seeing any sign of black paint anywhere near grille surrounds EXCEPT for diagonal grille siffener which was usually painted satin black.Whether this was an ommission on export casrs or not I don't know but I doubt it, but its possible it may have been done on Mk2's. I sometimes look in complete wonder at some of the questions on "detailing" on these cars asked on the forum. I also wonder where some of these alleged "facts" actually originate? It makes no sense whatsoever if you think of about it rationally. If you offer up the slatted grille of either Austin or Morris marque within the space-once fitted any sign of any black would be virtually invisible so what is the point of it anyway? There is already a black painted wing section behind the slats either end. Surely it's far more important to have the car saved as a runner in good condition and order, than whether every nut, bolt and screw is the correct colour? Come on guys enjoy these little suckers for what they are and stop trying to make them "better than the factory" (because goodness knows that wouldn't be too hard would it?) If any of the Anorak Brigade are ever sniffing or turning up their noses at detail on your car-ask them to produce theirs and watch them raise dust as they clear the area! Treat this kind of stuff for what it is-just faffing about!

Disagree. I’m not one for date stamps especially when it comes to removing parts from an original car to replace them with the correctly contrived dated items, or contriving a non original flat pack into a perfect date correct facsimile but when you’re emptying your bank account into restoring a car from scratch to “as it left the factory” condition (or better!) then it probably makes sense to do it... “as it left the factory”. I’ve had about five original paint Mk1 Ss with satin black paint behind the grill which I flagged up on here years ago, so have plenty of others, so not really an ‘alleged fact’ , they definitely did it. Personally I couldn’t care less what other people do with their cars, nor what these mythical ‘anoraks’ think but neither would I tell people what NOT to do with their cars either. Each to their own I reckon.

[Ross]

Absolutely agree-each to their own. Strange though how they don't appear out here in the antipodes don't you think?
Its not like our more possibly benign climate and sunshine hours have faded them out beyond recognition, and I still think doing it is an exercise in futility as you still can't see anything for your work? But to all who want to worship at the shrine of BMC "originality" before they blow out the candles and tip-toe up to bed-GO FOR IT! To me its a load cobblers. Cheers

[winabbey]

Ross - did the cars you mention originate from the UK or Australia? If the latter than I agree, there was no black paint in that area on cars assembled at BMC Australia in Zetland, Sydney. The front panel was all body colour.

Regarding your view on the lengths people go to in returning a car to its original state, or maintaining it (for those fortunate people like me who have found a very original vehicle) I'm in the "keep it original" camp, but I understand, appreciate and support others who customise theirs. Continuous questions on Facebook Groups and Forums from owners seeking originality shows it is not just the odd one or two going down this path.

[MiNiKiN]

an exercise in futility as you still can't see anything for your work? But to all who want to worship at the shrine of BMC "originality" before they blow out the candles and tip-toe up to bed-GO FOR IT! To me its a load cobblers. Cheers

Re can't see.... I do loads of work "no one can see" - like:

Butt welding rather than overlap
Welding holes rather than just putting in some paper covered by a layer of putty
Using original nuts and bolts where possible
and I'd probably make the panel black behind the grill - had I a Mk1.

Would anyone see it - rather not - but I KNOW it. It is called quality of restoration and often this is exactly the distinction between a 'repair job' and said restoration. But each to their own - I suppose we can all laugh at the 'slotted bolt head aliners' together

On topic: could it be that the black area was just the blank bonderising of the metal, masked for some reason prior to the painting process?

[GraemeC]

and I still think doing it is an exercise in futility as you still can't see anything for your work?

In this case its not about what you can see, rather what you can't. A light or bright coloured car without the black behind the grille doesn't look as good with the colour showing through in areas. It was quite a common thing back in the day with other marques doing it too.

[Nick W]

and I still think doing it is an exercise in futility as you still can't see anything for your work?

In this case its not about what you can see, rather what you can't. A light or bright coloured car without the black behind the grille doesn't look as good with the colour showing through in areas. It was quite a common thing back in the day with other marques doing it too.

Exactly..it was common practice on early Healey too.

[AndyPen]

and I still think doing it is an exercise in futility as you still can't see anything for your work?

In this case its not about what you can see, rather what you can't. A light or bright coloured car without the black behind the grille doesn't look as good with the colour showing through in areas. It was quite a common thing back in the day with other marques doing it too.

My RS500 was originally black behind the grill too. If it wasn't done it really showed up on the white cars.

[Andrew1967]

and I still think doing it is an exercise in futility as you still can't see anything for your work?

In this case its not about what you can see, rather what you can't. A light or bright coloured car without the black behind the grille doesn't look as good with the colour showing through in areas. It was quite a common thing back in the day with other marques doing it too.

Having found out about the black paint and ‘corrected’ HOY, I looked at my FY car and although most is covered there are areas where the yellow shows through ... a job for the summer (whenever that will be here !).

As is often said, the devil is in the detail, and is what sets restorations apart from each other.

[Dr S]

So was it only Cooper S’s that had the blacked out support? The painter for my Mk2 painted the support black. Should it have been red? Tbh I’m not over concerned

[Ross]

I was very interested in the response from MINIKIN as to me thats the most insightful feedback so far on a likely reason for the black section behind the grille.
I personally dont believe BMC would ever allow the production line to slow or stop to such an extent to allow someone to be spending the time to mask out a section and spray it black- it just wouldn't happen. You only have to look at the history of the company to realise that in the mid-sixties BMC was locked in what was in reality all out war with militant unions hell bent on bringing the company to it's knees with stoppages, walk-outs and finally of course actually achieving their goal and at the same time killing off their own jobs! Thats unions for you...after they finished BMC they emigrated to New Zealand and corrupted our industry as well!
BMC never made any money on the production of the mini-thats a well documented fact. It was bleeding money at an alarming rate and the premise that they would add ANYTHING to the production or cost of what were already a loss making unit on the lines at Longbridge or Cowley I believe is highly unlikely. SO here is what I think happened and why (and it is only an opinion, and there is probably no way the substantiate or disprove it short of moving film footage to confirm either way.)
Primed cars would arrive at the painting bay on the production line and because they-(BMC Management) would be looking to push these through as fast as possible to try and re-coop funds (and if you look at the footage of British Pathe You Tube clips of them "painting" the minis you will see what a cursory thing this was-as rough as guts! Its a wonder any paint other than overspray ever got on the bottom of the door pockets and jambs at all!) And because it was all about speed and efficiency, a pre-formed mask panel was fitted to ther grille under the slam panel section possibly by a hook/wire and pin which was dropped down the locking plate locating hole on top while the front of the car was painted. In the case of the "S" it could have even been sitting on the dressed down section that later held the horizontally mounted oil coolers. As someone who worked with spraying enamels in the sixties on vehicles as part of a sixty-two year career in the Signwriting and Graphics industry, I know personally just how difficult it was to bend or form the then available wide and unwieldly masking tapes available in those days as it was almost impossible, and they were also famed for pulling off as much paint film than they ever masked! They didn't have the benefit of modern thin 3M type thin line or flexible lo-tac masking tapes available today. It would have been a very slow and tedious (expensive) process that I just don't see BMC embarking on or allowing to happen? So what was the was the purpose for this template/masking panel? They were using DUCO or later DULON acrylic enamel finishes in those days with syphon guns - which, while doing a reasonable job (with care) also pumped out a lot of wasted paint as well. So by appying and removing a masking template over the black etch-primer around the grille section this meant they also saved incramental amounts of paint (remember every little bit helped over hundred and thousand of units) and the moment the shell was finished and moved on along the line all those areas around the grille section could immediately be fitted with moustache, grille, and probably even the front and rear bumpers and elbows- plus it wouldn't surprise me if the rubber grommets for the headlights and indicators below were attached as well at this station along with the brightwork as I don't think they would be tenderly treating these units and as these areas would not be that badly affected or wet by the application of paint. Result? A faster and more efficient production line-meant more money in the coffers for the management and a speey delivery to the dealerships-which was all they were interested in! So that's why the black section remained. Subsequently over the years and changes of owner or more probably panel damage or repairs to the front on these sections, repairers or fastidious owners re-taped these sections and rattle can re-sprayed the section black? And so the legacy perpetuated itself. As I say no way of knowing either way but knowing how shoddily they were put together it would not be an unreasonable supposition I feel. It was a travesty that such an ingeniously engineered and engaging little car got such a crappy deal from BMC-especially when you consider what it went on to become. You want to paint them-paint them but don't ever think BMC was ever trying to produce a fancy drressed up product-its a fantasy. You want to paint them black-paint them! I wouldn't bother....... however all this STILL does not explain why some cars had them and some didn't but mostly I suspect it was painted out in the process of repair or renovation perhaps. Maybe someone like John Parnell might know if he uncovered evidence during research for his book? Cheers

[AndyPen]

As has been pointed out here, some remedial work went into the battery tray with them being sealed, painted black and having the grommets removed - replaced with rubberised hair to let the water out I guess? Dealerships were asked to do this.

This area was clearly done with a brush, and if my memory serves me, this was what I found behind the grill on our 64 SDL when we first had it in the 70s. It wasn't sprayed so that's something else to consider

[Hipwell]

Begs the question how hard was it to mask off the whole body to paint the roof!!

As said many examples of original paint cars with the black present behind the grille, including my own.