HIF44 needle

[Dean]

Hello

i know there has been a few new bits added to this site to compare carb needles etc, and it must of taken years to gain all that info , to put it all together and lay it all out so people can use. , so thank you

what i am looking for is the best "ish" needle to start with, with the engine i have built.

i did have paid version of winsu, in my old windows pc, but that broke last year and i replaced it with a MacBook, and at present the programme is not compatible with Macs,

i am a total novice when it comes to understanding carb needles, so i was seeing if anyone could put my info into there copy of winsu and see what it comes out with, or any of you geniuses out there, that know it off the top of your heads,

at present it has a BEJ, stamped needle, ( not found that number in any lists, nor know what type of engine it was for)
( this is a freshly built engine, and i have just bought the second hand carb and rebuilt it,)
( also this carb is just going to be used for the running in stage , then swapping over to my twins,)

1071+0.060
sw5
1.5 roller tip rockers
stage 3 head
M/S alloy inlet
Hif 44
K&N pancake filter
S/S freeflow manifold
twin box S/S RC40
S ratio gearbox
3.44 diff
10" wheels, 165X70R10

thanks Dean

[Smiffy]

As regards your macbook, get yourself a copy of 'Parallels Desktop' or 'VM Fusionware'. Stick XP on it and you can run any windows program, without any windows hassle. You could even partition your hard drive and install XP properly on the other partition. But that way you get all the windows crap.

BEJ's a bit richer than the BDL which was fitted to the MG Metro as standard, so i'd suggest you run it and see what it's like before wasting money on more needles.

[Cheeser]

Just checked http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/suneedle/ that this functions on the ipad that I'm using, it works fine.So I'm sure that it would be good on a Macbook.I've found mintylamb very good for giving a comparison between needles.
Sorry to say smiffy, but I think you've misread your info on needles because I think the BEJ is weaker than the BDL.... have a look at 'Minty' !

[LarryLebel]

I recall the BEJ is from an automatic transmission Metro. When I put an HIF44 with a BEJ needle on my highly modified Cooper S motor it would only rev up to 5000rpm. When I put a BDK in the carb the motor ran like it was supposed to. Now the carb is on a more or less stock Cooper S motor and I believe it is a touch on the rich side. If I were to change the needle I would try a BDL.

[NZmember]

Which one of your cars are you putting the engine into? Just interested as you've been posting.

[Smiffy]

Sorry to say smiffy, but I think you've misread your info on needles because I think the BEJ is weaker than the BDL.... have a look at 'Minty' !

Thanks for that cheese, was only going on memory. But at the end of the day he should still run it and see how it goes rather than rely others best guesses.

The op was after installing winSU, rather than using a online service (mintylamb). Which is why Parallels/Fusion was mentioned, sounds like he's new to the world of hassle free computing.

[Dean]

thanks for your replies

i will try to download one of those programme and see if i can get winsu to work.

mintylamb is a good programme, but i am a total novice in needles, so i have not got a clue which is the right one of my engine in the first place, to then know to go richer or leaner. it will be good once the car is running and i am starting to tune then this programme will be a handy tool.

so as BDL has been mentioned a few times, it maybe worth keeping my eye out for one, i do have a spare hif44 so i check what needle that has.

NZmember, are you asking about my car, as you said which one of my cars, i am only building one car, my 62 fiesta yellow basic model, i have no other cars on the go, i do have a 68 elf, but that stored away waiting to be rebuilt one day.

so i was not sure if you were talking to one of the other posters above.

thanks

[Dean]

just searched up parallels and fusion,

and managed to fine that pc world has reduced it from 79.99 to 26.99!!!!!!!! could not even download a copy cheaper.

[Smiffy]

just searched up parallels and fusion,

and managed to fine that pc world has reduced it from 79.99 to 26.99!!!!!!!! could not even download a copy cheaper.

sent you a pm dean

[ianh1968]

Needles.Advanced.jpg

Post edited to show a better quality image
of the same information.

[Dean]

thanks very much ian.
i don't want to sound ungrateful, which i am NOT, i am very grateful for everyones help, time and experience.

i maybe be totally stupid
but i don't understand whats its trying to showing me . like i said i am a total novice, so i don't have a understanding.
i am the type of person that learns from doing things (hands on), than reading it in a book, thats why i am good at my job ( joiner) and i did not get good grades at school

is that good or bad for my engine????

[ianh1968]

The data shows that the needle BEJ is very weak compared to BDL,
the MG Metro needle. Needle BFY is also listed in "Haynes" as a
later MG Metro/New Cooper needle... The two are similar.

The 'X' axis on the chart, ie, the numbers along the bottom, relate to
the "index points", as per the official needle chart data. These are
measured in 1/8 of an inch intervals from the mounting boss down
to the tip. The numbers up the side "Y" axis are the exposed jet areas
in "square thousandths of an inch".

Index point "1" is the fat end of the needle and equates to the "idle"
end. Point "12" is the maximum carb piston lift position that will occur
in a HIF44 - Ideally this should only occur when the engine is at
maximum power RPM, and whilst actually producing maximum power.

BEJ is a MINIMUM of about 10% leaner than BDL, rising to a maximum
of somewhere about 30% leaner... In LarryLebel's engine, this did
not let it run to anywhere near its potential. I had a "way-too-lean"
needle in an engine once for the purpose of emissions for the MOT.
On the way to be tested, the engine wouldn't pull the skin off a
custard and I was even overtaken by a bloke on a push-bike at
one stage, such was the poor acceleration... It gave me 0.05%
CO2 when we would normally expect to see 3%-6%.

If the anticipated power output of your engine is somewhere about
the 72Bhp of the MG Metro, then BDL would be a much better
starting point. It is extremely likely that BEJ is going to be far
too lean in your engine.

Running an engine lean will make it run hotter as the mixture takes
longer to burn. A leaner mixture would also need more ignition
timing for the same reason.

AN EXCESSIVELY LEAN MIXTURE IS BAD FOR YOUR ENGINE!

"Needles" tabulates and displays the "effective jet area" which allows
needles from different sized jets to be compared on the same chart.
In the '60's, for example, some of the "Formula Junior" engines used
an HS6 carb, but using a 125thou jet instead of the original 100thou one.

Some of the 2" HS carbs could have either 90thou or 100thou jets
installed. It is also possible to put a 90thou jet in an HIF6/HIF44.

The shape of any comparison lines on WinSU and Minty Lamb will be
the same as shown on "Needles", but the data on "Needles" is far
more advanced in many respects... However, Minty et-al does not
cope with mixed jet sizes, nor does it cater for needles which have
been filed.

I read somewhere on here recently that someone was very pleased
with the needle that WinSU had selected for his engine. It was
"correct up to 70mph, then needed filing". My GUESS is that the
needle chosen by WinSU would therefore have only actually been
correct for the first 4 or 5 index points (out of 12) and then wrong
for the rest of it.

Makes you wonder what the point of using it would be...

Ian

[leonrjohnson]

I have an HIF44 on a 970 S engine, and have been experimenting with MintyLamb in conjunction with an AFR meter. I started off with BDL needle.It was too lean at top end, so tried
BDR too rich over most of the rev range. BCE too rich at bottom end, so I fitted a BBW and seems to be the right one for me. I spent ages on MintyLamb site plotting all the HIF44 100 thou needles and comparing them, and narrowed my requirements down to the above needles. I am using a red spring. My engine has 32 degrees max advance at 5000rpm (123 distributor with no vacuum advance), and is running a 731 cam with K&N filter and maniflow with RC40 exhaust.I have 10:1 compression ratio and run 97 octane gas. I have an AEG163 head. I dont run the engine over 8000rpm, even though it will go to 9000, but a waste of time as it flattens out at 8000.

[ianh1968]

Needles.Basic.png

Leon's needles tabulated, nice to see that 970 working...

The values along the bottom of the chart are the index points,
the values up the side are "exposed jet area in square thou".

For reference, the original post BEJ needle has been added,
as well as the 90 thou "Standard 1275cc" AEM needle. The
comparison is valid because the chart shows annular area
and not diameter, like the "other" needle utilities do...

Note that at index point 9, BEJ and AEM are virtually identical.
This demonstrates that a needle diameter of:
80 thou in a 100 thou jet
- gives the same effective area as a
67.2 thou in a 90 thou jet
(The data grid diameters are in tenths of a thou).

Interesting that the BBW is one often used by the Rover V8 boys.
Perhaps the 970 needs about the same fueling as "half a V8"?

Ian

[In the shed]

It has been a long time since I messed about with MG Metro engines and needles.

The 12HD24, which is the leaded good one had a BDL. This was slightly wrong at the bottom end and slightly wrong at the top end for the motor. (I think this was due to economy and smoothing out the beginning-to-get-lumpy cam). The BDK sorted this out. It was less of one and more of the other (whichever way around it was). This made the engine produce more power and made it "better".

If I had your engine, I'd put a 286 in it and fit a couple of 1.5s and go for a 3.7FD.

[ianh1968]

The OP was a 1071cc 'S' (+060).
The later posts are about a 970 'S',
and now an MG Metro.

We've all gone a bit "off topic" here...

Ian

[JohnA]

Try a BDL, run it in carefully and take it to a rolling road that's mini friendly that should get right first time and save the hassle of buying needles you don't need. Why spend time and expense building an engine and risk damaging it because the timing and fuelling isn't correct, it will also be a lot more satisfying to drive

[CooperTune]

You mention a Rover V8 SU, I had a customer bring me one that appears to be new and a Rover V8 carb. I told him we needed a HIF 44 and he got one. I placed his on the shelf and used one of mine for his project. I have no idea of the value or demand for this thing. I can get the numbers if that helps. I don't want to send to UK but will. I spoke with Joe and he said send it up and he'd give me needle credit once he has seen it. Hope this does not mess up your thread. Steve (CTR)

[ianh1968]

Hope this does not mess up your thread. Steve (CTR)

Steve,
I think that the thread is already "broken"...

I just re-read Dean's original post and spotted this:

<SNIP>
( also this carb is just going to be used for the running in stage , then swapping over to my twins,)

Ian

[rich@minispares.com]

I read somewhere on here recently that someone was very pleased
with the needle that WinSU had selected for his engine. It was
"correct up to 70mph, then needed filing". My GUESS is that the
needle chosen by WinSU would therefore have only actually been
correct for the first 4 or 5 index points (out of 12) and then wrong
for the rest of it.

Makes you wonder what the point of using it would be...

I think people often get caught out with non working waxstats / worn s.u's when using 'needle choosers'

just because the computer 'suggests' that the needle is correct doesn't actually mean that it will be.


I see a lot of people moaning about needles at work and my first question is always 'is it a waxstat', followed by 'have you checked its working' (and the answer to the second question is nearly always 'what do you mean....)


I always use the printed s.u needle book and photocopy the various needle profiles, cut them out and line them up to work out where I want to be. im just old fashioned though!


oh, and my 'running in hif44' that I use on my 1071's has a BBW in it - there was no science in choosing it, but it starts, stops, and shows a happy number on the afr