Spark (or lack of)

[Th4neuk]

Hiya,

I am attempting to start the engine before I pull it out to start on the body but the wiring loom has been chewed by rodents

However if I connect the battery direct to the starter how do I get the engine to run. Appreciate this is an open forum so if anyone could pm me that would be ace. I think it is a +ve earth with no modifications

Thank you

Alan

[minimans]

wire from battery + to the switch side of the coil should be marked + or SW If you have an electric fuel pump you'll need a + feed to that as well
Year and model of said car would help...........................

[Th4neuk]

Sorry 1960 Morris engine 850

Ta

Alan

[minimans]

Then yes feed to coil and fuel pump. Make sure you disconnect the loom wires first! if the critters chewed through wires introducing voltage to them may let the smoke out! connect the jump cables to the solenoid not the starter and use the button on the solenoid to start car

[ianh1968]

wire from battery + to the switch side of the coil should be marked + or SW
If you have an electric fuel pump you'll need a + feed to that as well

WAIT!

It's POSITIVE EARTH...

The coil + will go to the distributor via a white/black wire, then to earth through the points.
A white -ve feed will need to go to the fuel pump and the SW/- side of the coil.

If the battery wiring is intact, it's best to leave it and just use the push-start
button. If you do connect the battery direct to the starter, you will need to
clamp the positive to the engine and dab the negative on the starter feed stud.

This will normally knacker up the brass thread on the feed stud because you will
be arcing starting current through it...

If you wire it up back to front, it will probably still work, but you will mess up
the polarity of the dynamo: - Been there, done that... Ran fine for a while until
the battery went flat.

Ian

[minimans]

wire from battery + to the switch side of the coil should be marked + or SW
If you have an electric fuel pump you'll need a + feed to that as well

WAIT!

It's POSITIVE EARTH...

The coil + will go to the distributor via a white/black wire, then to earth through the points.
A white -ve feed will need to go to the fuel pump and the SW/- side of the coil.

Ian

OOP's your right I should have clarified polarity first.............It may have been changed to Neg. earth at some point so check polarity first!!

[ianh1968]

Minimans, I was typing at the same time as you, and I added a bit more to my post.

Please check that we are in agreement here...

Ian

[Th4neuk]

Ok if I check in the boot the +ve lead is going to the earth strap on the body (well it has a p on it lol) so am going to presume it is positive.

So far I have tried it on both -ve and +ve side of the coil and nothing I can't even get a small spark out of the points. I'm not sure if something else might be buggered though.

I've had a quick clean of everything on the ignition side and at the minute am just s
Spinning the engine with no plugs in to not stress anything.

As an aside am getting 50psi on the oil pressure gauge with the plugs in (is that good).

Ta

Alan

[minimans]

Have you run a wire from the Neg terminal on the battery direct to the SW on the coil?

[minimans]

Minimans, I was typing at the same time as you, and I added a bit more to my post.

Please check that we are in agreement here...

Ian

Yes absolutely

[ianh1968]

Alan, if you have a multi-meter, try this...

Take the wire off the distributor and set your meter to
Ohms x1. Connect one lead to the pigtail connector and
the other to the engine.

Wind the engine over, by hand and the meter should go
on and off. This will tell you if you have a short circuit
inside the distributor.

You can connect a wire directly from the pigtail connector
to the coil +ve. This will bypass the white/black wire in the
loom. (Had a problem with this on one of my own a while back
and doing this bypassing cured the problem...)

Connect a wire directly from the battery - to the SW/-
connection on the coil - this will bypass the ignition switch.
Ditto minus to fuel pump...
Don't leave the coil connected too long unless you get the engine
going or you will cook it!

This is the bare minimum wiring to run the engine.

Do you have fuel in the float bowl? Take the lid off and have a look.

I spent two hours once trying to debug a friend's car - fuel was
getting as far as the pipe connected to the float bowl, but not
getting past the needle valve due to a build up of crap!

If you've got fuel and a spark, providing the distributor has not
been moved too much, it should go. It can be quite a few degrees
wrong before the engine won't start...

Good Luck.

Ian

[Th4neuk]

Yep and still drawn a blank

At the minute I've not got as far as fuel lol. Figured first port of call was to get a spark and then I would know I was part way there. Was going to manually fill the float bowl then and try and get some fuel through. The starter switch has rusted solid so can't use that at the minute anyway (bought one of eBay so hopefully should arrive soon)

Cheers

Alan

[Lord Croker]

If it's any help, I always use a strobe timing light to ascertain whether or not I have a spark in these type of situations, if the strobe flashes brightly when cranking the engine, I know I have to look at the fuel side of things.

[dklawson]

I would like to suggest a few tests you can carry out without cranking the engine so you won't run the battery down.

As Ian said, start with a multi-meter and the distributor.
Disconnect the wire between the distributor and coil.
With the meter set to measure resistance, connect one meter lead to the dizzy housing and the other to the small spade lug on the side of the distributor (where you removed the wire going to the coil).
With the dizzy cap removed, look at the points. If they are open, close them by sticking the tip of a screwdriver between them. If the points are closed, open them by using a screwdriver to lift the heel block off the dizzy cam. Touch only the heel block, not the metal points arm.
With the points closed your meter should show close to zero ohms. When you open the points they should read infinite ohms (open).
If the points do not measure as l list above, you have a problem with the points or condenser. If the circuit always looks "closed" (near zero ohms) look for problems with the points assembly if this is a 23/25D4 (or DM2) series Lucas distributor. It's easy to put the insulators on the points in the wrong order. If the points insulators are assembled correctly, try replacing the condenser and repeating the tests above.

[Th4neuk]

Nice one thanks guys.

Electrics are a bit of a weak point of mine when it comes to cars

Will give this a try tonight though and let you know how i get on

Thank you

Alan

[goff]

Everyone trying to help Alan start his engine , you will see under our cars ( 1960 project ) that this car as been stood 20 to 30 years and rats ect have lived in it , chewed the wiring ect, I think it will need more than a wire to the coil , solenoid and fuel pump?? as Alan said lots of parts are seized though the engine is turning over on the starter direct, having read the 1960 project that Alan as posted ! If he still wants to see if it runs before the big restoration starts I would remove the carb and clean it , check needle valve is not stuck or leaking when filled with petrol ,don't bother with the fuel pump , rig up gravity feed for the carb or just fill the bowl , fire extinguisher handy just in case ,fit a set of new points , do a previous answers wire to SW , check for a spark, don't forget to remove the rocker box and make sure no valves are stuck down, I have probably missed something but the other lads will fill that part for you,do one thing at a time ,
Alan great project even though it's a bit mixed with parts, as you know there's guys on here are great and will help you all the way, don't forgetful Blyton in the begin of May as you are N Linc ,anyway good luck with stating the motor and you resto
Regards
Goff

[Th4neuk]

Thank you for all your help guys, as goff says it is a bit of a mess with the wiring so am not going to do anything with the fuel pump (I'll bench test that later). I was going to put a small amount of fuel in a bottle and rig it up to the carb when I get that far.

I just want to check the engine runs as if it goes I'm not going as far as a full rebuild at this point.

Anyway have stripped cap of and made some roof by taking the dizzy rain guard away. After spraying everything with electrical contact cleaner as it was a mess in there I tried again to see what I got. Basically this happened



Not sure why this wire has burnt through but presume that can't be good?

I tried the multi test on and got it down to intermittent zero ohms so not sure what is wrong unless this wire was breaking up already and this was giving a duff reading. Can I replace this with a normal piece of wire or do I need a special connector which replaces the pig tail connector?

Cheers

Alan

[Lord Croker]

It looks to me as if it has shorted to earth via the condensor, or the wire has been touching something it shouldn't. The only part of the points it should make contact with is the end of the spring, where it should be insulated from earth by means of plastic insulators which fit into the round end of the spring. Looking at the photo, it seems to be right. You can replace it with a similar size piece of wire, bearing in mind it has to be flexible enough to account for the movement of the baseplate when the vacuum advance operates.

[goff]

Alan was it already burned or have you done it ??????
Its probably been shorted out on the dist body , Follow the wire to the plastic plug, That lifts of the dist , Its isolated from the dist body and the points are as well by a small plastic plug, I think this wire is bare with a heat sheath over it but includes an eyelet and the plastic plug, If you don't fit the points correctly with the plastic plug isolating them apart it will burn this wire out, I would say you will need the proper part, I think you could by pass this temp if YOU shorted it out and nothing else is wrong, Take a wire from the spade terminal and lead it through the hole were the plastic plug was then on the points , BUT MAKE SURE YOU FIT IT PROPERLY ON THE POINTS AND NOTE THE ISOLATION BETWEEN BOTTOM AND TOP SET also the wire does not foul the rotor arm , Somebody else will come and help aswell.
Alan get a spark first then move on to the Carb , Fresh petrol, Don't forget to check the valves for stuck down !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , I once spent hours trying to start a Vauxhaul Victor that some one had fitted a second hand engine too , It was trying to start ,ended up removing the rocker box and found a couple of valves stuck down,

Goff

[Th4neuk]

I think I'm going to get a new set of points and a condenser tbh. I think something is shorting out as when I've put my new bit of wire on it, it's almost immediately started heating up and melting the insulation

I wonder if one of the plastic insulation things has broken down or something? I'm guessing it shouldn't cook that quick?

Guess this is the fun of a rat eaten shed lol. Still all part of the fun trying to figure out what is the issue and a big cheer when we finally get a spark. Still if I have to order a set I'll clean the carb while I'm waiting

Cheers

Alan