Can't engage 1st and 2nd gears

[Chapmag]

Hi all,

I'm mechanically inept (is that the same as admitting to be an alcoholic in another place!! LOL.)

My Dad was a lifelong mechanic, loved him to bits but teaching was not his strength.

He gave me a minute or two to do something on a car before taking over and finishing the task himself.

As a result I've had to rely on others to do my mechanicing for me.

I lost my Dad to Alzheimers, so my self taught son became my mechanic.

I've now lost him to marriage and fatherhood and wouldn't have it any other way than to be down on his priority list.

At 70, I think I'm now to old to learn.

Back to my topic...

I had my original 1960 engine rebuilt and my replacement synchro qearbox overhauled 10 years ago.

They were re-united but then sat in a corner of my garage before being re-introduced the the car recently (with the help of a friend).

Everything was going along fine until I decided to try a test drive.

The test drive turned out to be driving up and down my driveway in 3rd and reverse.

I cannot find 1st and 2nd gear.

I've searched the board and although I'm sure I've read about this problem, and its cause, I cannot find it!

This coming Saturday morning we are lifting the engine out, pulling the flywheel off and exposing the gear box.

I'm sure that there are a few on here that can tell me what we should be looking for, so please.... advise away!!!

Thanks in anticipation.

G.

[Peter Laidler]

First, a question for YOU. When you say that you can't find 1st and 2nd.....
Do you mean that you can't select them because you can't get the gear lever over to the left?
OR, do you mean that you can get the lever over to the left and it'll move forwards and back but doing so doesn't select anything

We'll need an answer to those Q's before we can take it any further.

Peter. 70+ and also mechanically inept

[Chapmag]

Thanks Peter,
I feel a little more comfortable given you seem to be in my situation "70+ and also mechanically inept"!
Gear lever will find 3rd, 4th and reverse and the gear lever and linkage appears to have full movement to the left.
But there is no movement up (for 1st) or down (for 2nd).
TIA for your input.
G.

[olddave]

Before you hoik it out have a look at the knuckle joints on top of the diff housing. Maybe slack or misaligned?

[Polarsilver]

Problem that most of us +70 have is remembering anything other than the very best of times past ..other than somehow we remember keeping the Mini going to be able to get to work next day at 7.30am .. Forum has already given good advice .. So can you select all gears without engine running ? Then is the Clutch system working get a Driver to pump the clutch & look at the clutch lever ..is it moving enough to release the clutch plate etc.
agree go through every aspect before strip out

[Peter Laidler]

As a rule, you shouldn't be able to misalign the knuckle joints because the cross-bolt won't be able to cut across the recess/cutaway in the shaft. But never say never.

'Appears to have full movement to the left.....' It DOES - or it DOESN'T. Make sure that is IS going fully to the left. If it is, then this confirms to me that it's an internal gearbox problem. I hope that I am wrong and someone will come on board and berate me.

But inability to select both gears makes me fear the worst

[Chapmag]

Thanks for all the replies. I omitted to say that I have the support of a very experienced mechanic, who did his apprenticeship on minis in the late 70's early 80's.
It was simply that I was convinced that I read on here that installing tapered bearings(?) the wrong way round in the gearbox could cause the problems I am encountering.
Thanks again everyone.

[360gts]

As a rule, you shouldn't be able to misalign the knuckle joints because the cross-bolt won't be able to cut across the recess/cutaway in the shaft. But never say never.

'Appears to have full movement to the left.....' It DOES - or it DOESN'T. Make sure that is IS going fully to the left. If it is, then this confirms to me that it's an internal gearbox problem. I hope that I am wrong and someone will come on board and berate me.

But inability to select both gears makes me fear the worst

Peter, been thinking about this issue.
Here are a few of my thoughts:

The knuckle joints misaligned would affect all gears...maybe not pushing/pulling the gear so that it will pop out etc.
Owner says the lever does go all the way left....however, it may be not be enough to allow the selector arm to clear the 3rd/4th selector ...that would mean you are trying to select two gears at once.

Wondering if the original builder did something wrong with the plungers that hold the selector rods detented....(the two screws at the lower clutch end of the casing)
Almost sounds like the 1st/2nd rod is solidly bound up.......just a thought.
Might be worth releasing the screw that hold the 1st/nd detent to see if that allows the rod to travel freely.

Next, he might have wrongly assembled the first gear hub assembly .....causing the outer gear to seize on the hub.
Cheers
Dermott

[Spider]

I'd suggest checking what you can externally, especially if the stick has just about zero fore & after movement - the Gearstick, the Smoker's Pipe that sockets in to and the Knuckle Joints, though, like Dermot, I don't think these are the likely issue here.

If there's some small movement here (beyond any clearance in the gearstick itself), the also as Dermot has suggested, I'd say that 1st / 2nd Hub is locked up, though, before diving in there, it might be worth draining the Oil and checking the Shift Rod Dentent is free, you'll find that here;-



Just in case you missed it - drain the oil first ! - then undo that plug that's arrowed above. It is spring loaded so be aware. Take the spring out and the plunger behind that, then you see if you can select 1st & 2nd gears. If you can, for what ever reason, the plunger he is locked, it could be the wrong spring.

However, I'd say the issue is most likely the 1st / 2nd Hub hasn't been assembled correctly;-



There's a Pin (1) on the Inner Track and on the Outer Track there's only one 'tooth' that's ground to let that pin slide. If it's been assembled 60 or 120 degrees out, then once the hub is fitted to the Mainshaft, that Outer Track is locked.

[Chapmag]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
In the end we lifted the engine out and my mechanic pal took the gearbox to work.
Two detents were seized (they'd never been removed apparently).
One seized open and one seized closed, hence the inability to find first and second.
Luckily by taping the shaft at each end the locked detent was freed up, so no need for specialist tools/intervention.
Gearbox will be re-united with the block on Saturday morning and the the whole lot back in the car.
It'll probably the next weekend before we get it back on the road as I only have access to my mechanic pal for 3 hours each Saturday!!!
Thanks again for all your help, I'm very relieved it wasn't more serious and/or more expensive!!!

[Peter Laidler]

Very simple comment but can I suggest that before you assemble it all up fully, you clean the plungers in a drill chuck and scotchbrite pad but more so, clean the crap out of the holes by scrubbing them with a couple of those little cheapo dental brushes from Tesco or Boots. Always useful little brushes for your toolbox.

If they stuck once........