Fit or counterfeit ?

[4XMOKE]

After opinions on this timing chain before I contact the supplier.
Advertised as Iwis, ordered as Iwis, sold as Iwis, invoiced as Iwis, packed in a bag and marked as Iwis.
I can't see that Iwis would use chain rollers of the split type, they'd be seamless surely ?
The plates are stamped with an emblem, “Jwis”, which is an Iwis company brand.
Even if it is the correct emblem, that could easily be copied....
Any comments on what I've been sent ?

Thanks
Roger G

[Dearg1275]

This image from the Iwis web sight for timing chains (bush chains).

B6378F9C-EAD4-4BA4-8860-9919DC9CDB09.jpeg

D

[4XMOKE]

Thanks for that pic, I did look on their website and missed that one, all other pics show seamless rollers.
I'm really after first hand experience and people that can categorically say they've fitted them and had seamless/seamed rollers.

Roger G

[imack]

I have a used 5 year old Iwis chain that I bought from MED. It's stamped Jwis and has rollers rolled from flat plate.

[4XMOKE]

Ok, thanks for that one. I'm just very surprised they roller the rollers rather than draw them.


Roger G

[4XMOKE]

I'm also told that Iwis marked ones use seamless rollers. Anyone care to confirm that ?

Roger G

[imack]

I've got an old chain - came from minispares 15+ years ago, it's marked IRIS - don't know if it has anything to do with IWIS, it has seamless rollers.
Iain

[imack]

When I was into mountain bikes some years ago, chains with links rolled from flat plate were considered superior to chains with seamless rollers.
Iain

[4XMOKE]

Mmmm.... this is as clear as mud !
Having read a few threads, it seems there are Iwis endless chains, Iwis chains with split links, Jwis chains with split links.
I'm wondering if the original chains were Iwis endless and pre-stretched, but chain by the roll was cheaper so suppliers looked to that, then another step down the quality ladder to Jwis.
I might email Iwis for confirmation of what's what here.

Roger G

[4XMOKE]

I've got an old chain - came from minispares 15+ years ago, it's marked IRIS - don't know if it has anything to do with IWIS, it has seamless rollers.
Iain

Ian, looking at those rollers I'd say they do have seams, just very tight ones.
Thanks for the pic

Roger G

[imack]

You're right Roger, I had another look with my glasses on this time! There are joints in the rollers.
Iain

[Hipwell]

I'm also told that Iwis marked ones use seamless rollers. Anyone care to confirm that ?

Roger G

No they use rolled rollers, it’s part of the design as a damping effect. Other brands use a very hard solid roller and they seem more liable to fail. At the end of the day they are a chain for production engines, they need to be quiet and last ages. IWIS chain is actual automotive grade timing chain grade where other brands like Cross Morse, Rolon etc are actually machine chain, yes it’s up to the job in many cases. The Duplex size is D67.

For race use swap to a bush type singleplex chain as sold by Calver, Swiftune etc, lighter and stronger for its given size, think the IWIS code is G68. This is not the same as the singleplex chain sold by Minispares under the IWIS brand.

I had very long conversations with ‘The Chain Man’ Andy Forsdick about chains after suffering a number of failures with different brands of chain, (Cross Morse mainly) he said IWIS is the one to use. When you listened to the number of top engine builders of all marques he supplied with IWIS chains I was sold. Including Swiftune, Calver, MED in the Mini world. He’s now retired and Dennis Welch has taken over supply but they don’t have the same technical back up, Andy had chains for breakfast, lunch and tea.

Also endless or endlas chains as IWIS call it have no advantage over what i was doing in buying 25ft lengths and using split links (Mainly in engines that require them) yet to see a timing chain fail on it’s split link.

https://www.iwis.com/as-handbook/iwis-h ... uction.pdf

Page 75 covers relevant automotive info.

[Hipwell]

Edit: after reading some more is does appear that JWIS is a industrial machine chain, I have plenty of chains kicking about at work in IWIS boxes so will check up. I also have a Minispares chain that I was never happy that it was of correct quality and never used, will check that too, maybe it’s JWIS.

[4XMOKE]

Edit: after reading some more is does appear that JWIS is a industrial machine chain, I have plenty of chains kicking about at work in IWIS boxes so will check up. I also have a Minispares chain that I was never happy that it was of correct quality and never used, will check that too, maybe it’s JWIS.

Yeah, Hipwell, I'd really appreciate that info on the other chains. I have a feeling the Jwis is industrial and suppliers are not quite upto speed with what's what, it's just that bit cheaper to enable better mark up.
Let me know what you find please.

Roger G

[iain1967s]

If it helps at all, the IWIS endless “no stretch” duplex chain that I bought from Keith Calver a couple of years ago [mid 2017] had no stamping on the links. I’ve had no problems with it.

[4XMOKE]

If it helps at all, the IWIS endless “no stretch” duplex chain that I bought from Keith Calver a couple of years ago [mid 2017] had no stamping on the links. I’ve had no problems with it.

Iain, the plot obviously thickens !
Thanks for the pic, I don't suppose you have another of that box that would show Iwis or Jwis ?
Interesting that the plates are not stamped.

It seems there are variations to what people perceive as the right or correct chain here, Endless or split link, Iwis or Jwis, Seamless or split rollers, let alone what suppliers actually provide against a presumed standard. I'm really not sure that all of the chains discussed are the same, I'm sure that at this level we're already into diminishing returns in terms of chain accuracy and service life, but if you're paying for a premium product you want to be sure that what you're getting is actually the real deal.

I might have to contact Iwis directly to get a steadfast answer.

Roger G

[Hipwell]

The box in Iain’s photo is one supplied by The Chain Man who finished the chains himself rather than supply them in IWIS printed labelled boxes. The boxes were IWIS branded, I always cut the boxes up and stick them in a book for future reference.

Pretty sure the chain pictured would have the plates stamped on one side and they won’t all be facing outwards, can also be very faint.

A endless chain is correct for a Mini, a split link catches the thrower but I guess a split link could be fitted to the chain before fitting to the engine.

Not just us lot confused... https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic. ... 067&start=

[iain1967s]

I don't suppose you have another [photo] of that box that would show Iwis or Jwis

The box has long gone to recycling... but as I remember it the packaging as shown in my photo was a red box with all the various IWIS brand names and logos on the outside, and just a white sticker for the particular unique part number.

That is consistent also with the current photo on Keith’s website.

[Costafortune]

Iwis make chains for nearly all car manufacturers. They started using the 'split' rollers a couple of years ago. 'Jwis' is a brand name owned by Iwis.

They aren't as good as an old Reynolds chain despite the 'made in Germany' nonsense.

[4XMOKE]

Costafortune,
interesting info that they've changed spec.
I'm inclined to agree that they've penny pinched and cut corners, I just can't see split rollers being as strong as seamless and endless chains ought to be better than those with a split link. Maybe Iwis have fallen from top spot now..... ?

Roger G