Twist in a shell?

[Gary Schulz]

I am finally getting the final remains of the R/H inner wing separated from the shell and I now have the shell mounted to my chassis jig which has been trued/leveled.

20201208_082107.jpg

Unfortunately it is apparent the the shell has a twist in it from front to rear. The rear is attached to its mounting points and is level but as can be seen in the following picture, the main front cross member does not sit flat on the horizontal member of the chassis fixture. The right side (the side that is getting a new inner wing) is up above the horizontal bar by approximately 0.25".

20201207_111514.jpg

The locating holes for the subframe towers are also a bit off their datum points (WRT the rear subframe) but not too far... One problem at a time!

How have others dealt with a situation like this? It is amazing to me how torsionally rigid the whole thing still is even with the inner wing removed on the right side. I can stand on that side of the car and it doesn't budge so undoing this twist is pretty hard to do.

Do I just attach the rear of the car to the concrete floor and then attach a 10 foot long piece of bar to the two mounting locations for the subframe towers and hang from the end of it?

I feel like I am in over my head on this job!

[Dearg1275]

I have had a similar situation with my project. It was apparent that mine had a front end shunt on the right hand side. I found evidence of this in distortion of the door frame, upper dash rail and front parcel tray. In effect the bulkhead had been pushed upper wards and back.

I used a porta power to push the bulkhead back forwards and the down took care of itself. For the full story

http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25822&start=10

So, check for damage on the side where the cross member is high.

Good luck

D

[Gary Schulz]

Thanks D. I forgot about your build thread so I just went through it again. Very nice work.

I think mine has suffered an impact in an almost identical way as your car. I had some distortion on the right side of the parcel shelf and the very right side of the upper dash is pushed down maybe a fraction of an inch. I think I may have to make a template in the shape of the door so I can better see where the door frame might be distorted.

One thing that wasn't entirely clear to me in your build thread was how you straightened the front subframe. Mine also shows that one tower is pointing in very slightly different direction as the other and can be seen when looking at the stud alignment. Not sure how you actually straightened that out. It is tricky trying to figure out what to use for reference points when repairing these things.

[NicholasUpton]

Unfortunately I am not much help, as I just set them on my Celette and pull/ push until everything lines up. That’s a minor twist, I just did a front end on a 65 an it has a 7/8 inch gap on one side of the bulkhead when set on the fixture.

[Dearg1275]

Thanks D.

One thing that wasn't entirely clear to me in your build thread was how you straightened the front subframe. Mine also shows that one tower is pointing in very slightly different direction as the other and can be seen when looking at the stud alignment. Not sure how you actually straightened that out. It is tricky trying to figure out what to use for reference points when repairing these things.

It was a very Heath Robinson effort. I screwed some long studs into the top of the towers to make it easier to sight between them. I hooked the frame over a stout gate post and threaded a long length of timber through on the opposite side of the space where the engine sits and used it to torque the frame until the studs sat parallel. It was relatively easy to do but then I have a very long joist and extremely stout gate posts. Smile sweetly at a local farmer. Might think you mad but may just let you use a field gate post.

D

[Dearg1275]

Thanks D. I forgot about your build thread so I just went through it again. Very nice work.

I think mine has suffered an impact in an almost identical way as your car. I had some distortion on the right side of the parcel shelf and the very right side of the upper dash is pushed down maybe a fraction of an inch. I think I may have to make a template in the shape of the door so I can better see where the door frame might be distorted.

One thing that wasn't entirely clear to me in your build thread was how you straightened the front subframe. Mine also shows that one tower is pointing in very slightly different direction as the other and can be seen when looking at the stud alignment. Not sure how you actually straightened that out. It is tricky trying to figure out what to use for reference points when repairing these things.

Hi Garry,

I just wanted to extend a little further warning. I found that despite the B pillar and rear quarter panel looking OK, they had in fact moved slightly. This to the point that with the A panel restored to its proper place and the toe board and bulkhead crossmember sorted, there was an excessive rear door gap. The quarter panel was also a nightmare to get looking correct.

If I hadn’t committed to saving all the original metal I could, I think I would have cut free the B pillar, nudged it forward and replaced the quarter panel.

I say this only because I discovered this late as I had not stripped the shell of paint and filler and was tackling it piece meal.

Hope you get it sorted.

Cheers,

David

[Gary Schulz]

And then I also have this-

20201209_111957.jpg

The cross member is a little warped. Lower in the middle and higher at the sides. Pretty tough to figure out if the center is too low or the sides are too high! Not sure how I am going to handle this... The car hasn't been hit THAT hard based on what I am seeing by the RH inner wing so not sure what the cause might be for this. Looks like it is around 0.4" deviation across the length of the cross member.

[Dearg1275]

I reckon that’s just fatigue. It’s given at the weakest part of the crossmember. I would try fashioning a block of wood to the shape of the tunnel, raise the shell. Put the block on an axle stand beneath the cross member and drop the shell suddenly onto it. Crude but it might work. It might be worth cutting into the crossmember to give access for inserting some hidden reinforcement. Either that or just replace the crossmember with a new unfatigued one.

D

[Gary Schulz]

I think you have it right David. I don't see any connection to the other front end damage and the cross member seems to have been weakened because of some previous hacking around the front of the handbrake bracket. Everything is bent on this car but there is very little corrosion so it is worth the effort (at least I think so!)...

At least I managed to get most of the remaining inner wing removed without destroying the rest of the car. I left some material at the top because I don't know where I will be splicing in the new panel yet.

20201209_171232.jpg

[Exminiman]

I think you have it right David. I don't see any connection to the other front end damage and the cross member seems to have been weakened because of some previous hacking around the front of the handbrake bracket. Everything is bent on this car but there is very little corrosion so it is worth the effort (at least I think so!)...

At least I managed to get most of the remaining inner wing removed without destroying the rest of the car. I left some material at the top because I don't know where I will be splicing in the new panel yet.

20201209_171232.jpg

I know it sounds a bit like giving up, but is it worth taking to a professional with a decent body jig to straighten things up and know the body is straight ?

Might also save removing original metal, that you dont have to ....

All credit to you Gary, I would not have the nerve to do what you have already

[nick@dunsdale]

Does you jig bolt through the subframe mounting holes on the crossmember if it is down on that side i would expect it to be back a bit as well

you could do with another check point on your jig, on the toeboard subframe mounting holes this would give you more information on the alignment

Bit of a nightmare but i am sure the problem can be overcome

[Gary Schulz]

Yes, the fixture has accurately located holes to accept pins that go through the cross member tower mounting locations. The holes were accurately drilled using my milling machine and a DRO so they are very precise. I even went to the trouble of using oversize pins (bolts) and centering bushings so there is zero play in the locating points for the subframe. The use of oversize pins and bushings are probably overkill as they do not allow for any tolerance on those dimensions. They are handy for visualizing how far off the shell is from ideal locations however.

20201210_094404.jpg

Also you are correct that since this side is not sitting down flat, it is shifted backward from the ideal locating point. The cross member follows an arc that will always cause it to become pushed back if the vertical datum point is off. Here is a view showing how far back it is because it is not sitting at the right vertical location.

20201210_095410.jpg

[nick@dunsdale]

I suspect a porta power inside the car would bring that corner forward easy enough, but it would not bring the corner down.

To bring the corner down you may need to tie the shell to floor of your workshop

Edit

I see you have a lift in your workshop perhaps that could be used

[Gary Schulz]

Nick, yes, my thought exactly. I think the lift is plenty strong for me to rig up something to pull that corner down. Before I do any more on it I will make up a door template and make a few more measurements to make sure I am heading in the right direction.