Verto clutch problem

[Jono]

Sorry for the non Mark 1 post chaps but I'd appreciate your advice on my Verto issue

My son and I bought a 1990 Mini to tie him over as a learner car until his Mk1 is complete. It has an MG Metro engine.

The clutch was slipping due to a leaking oil seal so we pulled the engine to change the plate and also found the crank nose to be knackered - brand new crank fitted and new non Verto plate. I also did the slave seals as there was signs of fluid weeping.

All is well but after a very short period it baulks badly in down changes and is very relucatnt to go into first at junctions. Double de clutching works and a rapid pump of the clutch pedal lets it go into first. The pedal feels very soft but the clutch lever is being actuated. If you pump the pedal is doesn't firm up so I not suspecting there is any more air in the system.

I've adjusted the throw out stop and extended the push rod end by welding up 2-3mm of extra metal all to no avail.

I'm suspecting the master cylinder but there is no evidence of fluid leaking.

Any suggestions where to look? I'm considering sticking on a new slave cylinder and going from there.

Cheers

Jon

[rich@minispares.com]

there is absolutely nothing to gain by extending the rod on a verto clutch, if the adjuster nuts on the bearing holder are adjusted right the clutch couldn't overthrow. however, if it is adjusted wrong you can easily damage the spring by overthrowing the clutch, this would be made worse by a extended arm.

vertos are a very simple clutch set up, much better than the old sort, nothing fancy should have to be done to any of the parts to make them work

the pedal on a verto is always very soft and light (part of the attraction of them)

when you fitted the new crank did you size the primary gear to it?

make sure that the thrust clearance was correct?

it may be that the primary is nipping onto the crank

[Jono]

Hi Rich,

I checked the primary end float and it was 'baggy' (10 thou) but I left it figuring that the last Verto Mini I had was at something like 20 thou but gave no problems. Crank thrust end float were measured and in spec.

I didn't change the pressure plate - might the springs be goosed?

[rich@minispares.com]

as a rule of thumb, as a verto wears the bite of the pedal goes down towards to the floor, so eventually the clutch vanishes through the floor, you cannot make it come back as any 'modifications' just overthrow the spring fingers

if the plate is worn they tend to start to slip at high revs in third and forth

[Jono]

So, I changed the plate Rich - would you suggest a new diaphragm as well?

I also noticed the clevis pin to the arm is badly worn - is it worth fitting a new arm and clevis too?

...engine out again by the looks of it

[rich@minispares.com]

45 min to do a verto clutch in situ in a mini (and that's in a spi)

easy job!

[Rich997]

45 min to do a verto clutch in situ in a mini (and that's in a spi)

easy job!

Crikey that's impressive.

Having toiled with my pre verto clutch on a few occasions, I dread the two clutch cover bolts which my sausage fingers cannot reach.

Poking at it with a spanner, hoping the thread will start, then turning one flat at a time, misery.

No doubt there are a few top tips to make the job easier, maybe shortening the bolt, but surely that's cheating.

[rich@minispares.com]

Crikey that's impressive.

years of spannering on mighty minis taught me to be quick on spi cars, ive had so many of them in bits over the years that it just became easy to strip them fast


the only thing you need to be careful of when doing a in situ verto is making sure that the locking dog doesnt rotate 180 degree as you refit the bolt, i always 'first fit' with a second hand bolt with the washer removed so that i know that its all gone in square and right, then i refit using a new bolt with its washer.

[Jono]

..is it worth replacing the awkward bolts with studs?

[Jono]

...thread update.

Having now put some miles on the car, the issue has gone away - woo hoo

I can only assume it was some sort of bedding in issue?

Jon

[rich@minispares.com]

the easiest fix is no fix at all!

[Jono]

...I spoke too soon

All was going well and the gear change was if anything getting better when suddenly, today, on the way back from my son passing his theory test the clutch started slipping

Got back and floods of oil coming out of the clutch cover housing - clearly something catastrphic has occured, doubtless the primary seal has come out.

Rich - what is likely to have caused this? I got it in straight, the engine is noty a 'heavy breather'. Could this be down to the primary gear being to sloppy on the new crank - how would that cause the oil seal to go?

I put the seal in with a smear of Wellseal as is my habit with oils seals - was this the culprit?

Any thoughts welcome

Out with the engine it is then

[rich@minispares.com]

you don't need to take the engine out to do the clutch oil seal, its very rare they pop out, normally is massive crank case pressure that does that

id guess its more likely that you tore the seal when you fitted it - its so easy to do if your not using the right tool

[Jono]

Rich,

Nice thought but we are looking at a very sudden and large release of oil which makes me convinced the seal has come out.

I'll investigate with the engine in the car first but I'm guessing if the primary gear needs to be re bushed it's engine out to take measurements?

Jon

[rich@minispares.com]

someone on here (naming no names) has recently had a car that had a HUUGEEE pool of oil under it, that was a torn seal

[Jono]

..update, yep the seal had come out.

Also the rear primary tail bush shows signs of severe distress - could the two be linked or perhaps I've simply not got the seal in square?

Anyhow glad it happened in a way as the primary clearly needs rebushing and I could have mullered the new crank with further running - not scientific I know but I can easily push a 6 thou feeler between the crank tail and rear bush.

When I fit the new seal are there any tricks to 'glue' it in place? I used some Wellseal when fitting and part of me thinks that may have created a slip plane making it easier to come out? I don't think I have high crankcase pressure - timing housing and drop gear housing breather cans are fitted.

The seal fitting tool is a big hit for what will probably be a one time use but is it worth investing? I'm doing it with engine in car.

Flipping Minis eh, why do I persist with them

[Jono]

Okay update time....

Primary gear re bushed to precise spec and end float corrected to 3.5 thou. Used, but good, genuine pressure plate and new driven plate fitted. New clevis pins to clutch arm and push rod and a new slave push rod fitted

And the flippin' thing is still not properly disengaging The ball end on the arm is worn - would this be sufficient to cause the issue bearing in mind everything else is spot on?

What throw sould I be seeing between the big nut and wok on a well set up Verto system?

[GraemeC]

Worn balls won't help.

There should be 0.5-0.55" of movement of the pushrod at the slave cylinder

[Jono]

Thanks Graeme, will check that - it's possible I may have some air in the system

[Jono]

Just checked - I have 12mm travel at the pushrod which translates to 5mm throw at the bearing plunger.

Any comments on this - is 5mm too little? (worn ball on arm?)