1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa, (now supercharged 8 port)
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
more dyno time today, and last friday as well!
on the session last week we realised i'd set the cam sensor angle wrong, i was sure i'd followed the manual but hey ho, the software displays a figure (i hadnt seen it before) and suffice to say mine was double that..
We also reduced the number of injector drivers down to two, and tested swinging the injection angle around to equalise the afr's between inner and outer cylinders, it didnt work.
After prolonged calls to DTA it was agreed my lambda positioning was incorrect and even though swinging this timing could be felt and heard to be working, without the dual lambdas working properly we were pissing around in the dark and wasting time.
The fuel map was given a quick going over in the midrange so it was safe for the 8 hour plus Mitp trip.
Fast forward to today. Since coming back from Mitp on monday I'd removed the exhaust system, added new lambda bosses to both outer branches of the lcb, wrapped a good chunk of the lcb, painted it with heat reflective paint, wrapped the central section of the exhaust with a special foil blanket (to help stop me cooking inside the car) and got it all refitted, and did some work on the Mk1 8 port as well.
First up was to swing this injection timing angle around to see if it does equalise the afr's - yes it did and more importantly you could see it on the gauge this time! Next we opened the injection angle map up to work through the various rev and load sites and input some figures.
Thats where we came unstuck, theres a bug in the dta software that stops you from live mapping on this particular map, normally on fuel, ign, boost control, any other map, you swing the values using the dyno control knobs to get what you want and press enter to save the value to that particular cell, then move onto another load/throttle position and do it again and again. Bad for me it doesnt work and wont be fixed till the next software update.
The only other way is to work through each cell, write down the figures then manually input them, but this is slow and dyno time is already hard on a car so i said we'd wait. As an interim fix we used a fixed angle thats 'there or there abouts' and gives good equalization most of the time.
Finally a quick check on the injector dead time value (Yep! another one where the manufacturers value I'd put it didnt agree with that calculated by the software ) meant the main fuel map needed running through again and checking / adjusting as required. so that was us done.
figure wise, virtually the same as last time, 117.7bhp, torque was up to 112 this time with increases across most of the rev range and a big chunk around up top, it also pulled from lower down as well. The peak power comes in around 500rpm lower than before and also pretty much flatlines to the rev limiter.
So thats it for a while bar some minor slow rev/load remapping and minor tweeks which i'll do with road tuning.
eta
quick video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNEbuT8ZPTo
on the session last week we realised i'd set the cam sensor angle wrong, i was sure i'd followed the manual but hey ho, the software displays a figure (i hadnt seen it before) and suffice to say mine was double that..
We also reduced the number of injector drivers down to two, and tested swinging the injection angle around to equalise the afr's between inner and outer cylinders, it didnt work.
After prolonged calls to DTA it was agreed my lambda positioning was incorrect and even though swinging this timing could be felt and heard to be working, without the dual lambdas working properly we were pissing around in the dark and wasting time.
The fuel map was given a quick going over in the midrange so it was safe for the 8 hour plus Mitp trip.
Fast forward to today. Since coming back from Mitp on monday I'd removed the exhaust system, added new lambda bosses to both outer branches of the lcb, wrapped a good chunk of the lcb, painted it with heat reflective paint, wrapped the central section of the exhaust with a special foil blanket (to help stop me cooking inside the car) and got it all refitted, and did some work on the Mk1 8 port as well.
First up was to swing this injection timing angle around to see if it does equalise the afr's - yes it did and more importantly you could see it on the gauge this time! Next we opened the injection angle map up to work through the various rev and load sites and input some figures.
Thats where we came unstuck, theres a bug in the dta software that stops you from live mapping on this particular map, normally on fuel, ign, boost control, any other map, you swing the values using the dyno control knobs to get what you want and press enter to save the value to that particular cell, then move onto another load/throttle position and do it again and again. Bad for me it doesnt work and wont be fixed till the next software update.
The only other way is to work through each cell, write down the figures then manually input them, but this is slow and dyno time is already hard on a car so i said we'd wait. As an interim fix we used a fixed angle thats 'there or there abouts' and gives good equalization most of the time.
Finally a quick check on the injector dead time value (Yep! another one where the manufacturers value I'd put it didnt agree with that calculated by the software ) meant the main fuel map needed running through again and checking / adjusting as required. so that was us done.
figure wise, virtually the same as last time, 117.7bhp, torque was up to 112 this time with increases across most of the rev range and a big chunk around up top, it also pulled from lower down as well. The peak power comes in around 500rpm lower than before and also pretty much flatlines to the rev limiter.
So thats it for a while bar some minor slow rev/load remapping and minor tweeks which i'll do with road tuning.
eta
quick video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNEbuT8ZPTo
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19842
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
- Location: Away with the Faries
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
Clever stuff!
I know I "should" understand all the modern stuff, but it just "does something" when it enters my head rendering it unintelligible.
I know I "should" understand all the modern stuff, but it just "does something" when it enters my head rendering it unintelligible.
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
I thought i understood it, till we changed to half the number of injectors pulses and it made no difference. The logic in my head of how it worked (or how i thought it was going to work) went south
Then the fact that the ECU manual says something like 'unlike the A series engine which needs equal firing and unequal injector timing' and thats the ONE thing that doesnt work on the ecu as normal! - makes you realise nobody else has obviously tried it and reported back
Then the fact that the ECU manual says something like 'unlike the A series engine which needs equal firing and unequal injector timing' and thats the ONE thing that doesnt work on the ecu as normal! - makes you realise nobody else has obviously tried it and reported back
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19842
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
- Location: Away with the Faries
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
I look forward to following your progress with interest.
Even if I don't understand it
Even if I don't understand it
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
excessive oil consumption has led me to suspect the engine is a bit buggered somewhere, either the old pistons have come a cropper or maybe a piston ring, I dont think its the scores in the bores that have been there since day one as the oil use has ocurred suddenly.
The ecu software bug should be fixed by the year end, but what if that doesnt fix my mixture issues
One way round it was to throw on a seven port head, keeping my nice cam and much modified exhaust manifold, it would be a brilliant comparison.
I was really wanting the alloy version but they dont seem to be about at the moment due to casting issues, the Specialist components one is too modern looking and the Minisport one i've heard mixed things about, and its 2grand.
So what to do??
Well the picture below shows whats in the offing, ex turbo engine with big dished pistons meets 8 port head!
Cam is NOS sprint version, new big bore exhaust manifold (not big enough at the ports mind..) Induction wise not sure, whatever I decide its obviously fuel injection, just seeing what'll fit under the bonnet will have to wait till its in the car i think? The inlet manifolds i have are as long as the inlets and throttle bodies on the bench there (from my brothers 8 port)
Engine is currently half transformed to 8 port spec, new bearings fitted, new thrusts, new followers. Static CR works out at 12.6:1
The ecu software bug should be fixed by the year end, but what if that doesnt fix my mixture issues
One way round it was to throw on a seven port head, keeping my nice cam and much modified exhaust manifold, it would be a brilliant comparison.
I was really wanting the alloy version but they dont seem to be about at the moment due to casting issues, the Specialist components one is too modern looking and the Minisport one i've heard mixed things about, and its 2grand.
So what to do??
Well the picture below shows whats in the offing, ex turbo engine with big dished pistons meets 8 port head!
Cam is NOS sprint version, new big bore exhaust manifold (not big enough at the ports mind..) Induction wise not sure, whatever I decide its obviously fuel injection, just seeing what'll fit under the bonnet will have to wait till its in the car i think? The inlet manifolds i have are as long as the inlets and throttle bodies on the bench there (from my brothers 8 port)
Engine is currently half transformed to 8 port spec, new bearings fitted, new thrusts, new followers. Static CR works out at 12.6:1
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19842
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
- Location: Away with the Faries
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 5 times
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
Sorry to hear that you have had to do an engine swap, but at least you have a decent selection of bits to build a replacement with.
I look forward to following your progress.
I look forward to following your progress.
- rich@minispares.com
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 6806
- Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:16 pm
- Been thanked: 2 times
-
- Basic 850
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:42 am
- Location: Edinburgh
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
You would say that though, ever the salesmanrich@minispares.com wrote:the only way is Arden!
Fyi the 2012 spec head stud set looks to be fine to use on this early, early head.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
-
- 998 Cooper
- Posts: 502
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:50 pm
- Location: Sunny Devon
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
I'm fascinated with builds like this, even though all the technical wizardry leaves me numb and confused!!
Looking forward to more updates.
Looking forward to more updates.
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
I'll try and keep this updated as i go along, theres obviously a facebook album with a bit of chit chat on here for those that can see it:
https://www.facebook.com/richard.allen. ... nref=story
It 'should' be set to public.
This was me measuring the combustion chambers.
https://www.facebook.com/richard.allen. ... nref=story
It 'should' be set to public.
This was me measuring the combustion chambers.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
- minimans
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1140
- Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: Sonoma California
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
I'm looking forward to more details on this head build! I'm at the moment putting together my Arden 8 port onto a 1380 A+ block. My problem is the head has been skimmed down to 11cc chambers and I'm having to use 11cc dish pistons to get the deck height and Comp. ratio down to a sane level for a road car. My head is also an early original head #46. I have a sprint cam for it and am worried about valve to piston clearance even with a 120thou Cometic gasket. But I'll get it all resolved when I get the block back from the machine shop and do a dummy build. I'm sure it could all be worked out on paper but that's why it's called a dummy build for people like me! I can use a Micrometer but not a pencil.......................
Not much of a chamber left is there.......................
Not much of a chamber left is there.......................
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
Parked the car up today and made a start on stripping it down.
Last look!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
- rich@minispares.com
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 6806
- Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:16 pm
- Been thanked: 2 times
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
Been busy.
Primary endfloat, used all the bits of the broken motor Cam endfloat bastard of a job getting the new woodruff key to fit in the slot, then the cam sprocket over the cam/key.
On cylinders two and four the head of the conrod bolt fouls the cam lobes. and needs a tiny bit taken off.
later that afternoon.
Then I could start swapping bits to the replacement short motor and checking the various clearances.Primary endfloat, used all the bits of the broken motor Cam endfloat bastard of a job getting the new woodruff key to fit in the slot, then the cam sprocket over the cam/key.
On cylinders two and four the head of the conrod bolt fouls the cam lobes. and needs a tiny bit taken off.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
then you can crack on with the cam timing, to find that when its set you can feel the tiniest touch of the lobes again, so the conrod bolt heads need a miniscule amount more off.
the empty engine bay reveals a few secrets
So thats going to get rewelded and beefed up, also the rubbers of the ultimate engine steady on the waterpump have eaten themselves, plus i found a melted wire(s) coming off the starter motor, i guess a legacy of when the lighting switch and dip switch failed. so some work required in the bay.
the empty engine bay reveals a few secrets
So thats going to get rewelded and beefed up, also the rubbers of the ultimate engine steady on the waterpump have eaten themselves, plus i found a melted wire(s) coming off the starter motor, i guess a legacy of when the lighting switch and dip switch failed. so some work required in the bay.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
- minimans
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1140
- Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:24 am
- Location: Sonoma California
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
There's a copy of the ST instructions for the rod mod here................... http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/st_news.pdf
-
- 1275 Cooper S
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: East Cumbria
Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa
yep, cheers i'm aware of that, i just file it till it clears, its not the whole head that needs angling either, as you can see from the pic its just one end.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!