Close ratio wand change

[gs.davies]

Any advice gratefully received..

My car has hybrid wand box, four synchro a series gears in an 1128 case, currently wih a 22G927 lay shaft. I'd like to explore getting a close ratio gearset in it but I don't want straight cuts. What else would I need if I got this kit?

http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... |Back%20to

Is there some magical piece of unobtainium that is also need?

Was thinking using it with either a 3.2 or 3.44 FD on ten inch wheels, breathed on 1100.

[LuisM]

Hi,
that minispares kit will be a straight swap on your gearbox, nothing else required.
Personally I would not use anything lower than a 3.44 on a 1100, the fun part will go away.

Cheers
Luis

[ianh1968]

I'd like to explore getting a close ratio gearset in it but I don't want straight cuts.

You really haven't got much choice for a PROPER close ratio set if you stick with the
helical and/or 'S'/GT gears... The only differences with these gears are that the
First Motion Shaft has 18 teeth instead of 17, and the meshing 29 tooth gear on the
laygear has a slightly shorter profile to accommodate it.

These gears will give a marginly-slightly-hardly-less-wide ratio drop between
3rd and 4th and not much more. 1st, 2nd and 3rd will all be higher, but the
ratio relationship between them will be unchanged.

Here's an example with 10" rims and A008 Yoko's on a 3.444 diff...

Std-vs-SGT.png

What else would I need if I got this kit?

Nothing - You just swap the two gears and you're done...

I would not make a special job of taking the engine/box out just to do this
if still going for helical, but if the whole thing is apart anyway, then why not?

You won't get the full joys of a (nice) noisy box without proper close ratios,
but dropping down from top to 3rd for an overtake will rev the engine a bit less.

For a proper "Close Ratio", see this example of the "Clubman" set...

Std-vs-ClubmanSC.png

If you want the spreadheet that generated these examples,
you can get it FREE, from here:-
http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.u ... anical.htm

Ian

[gs.davies]

Isn't the clubman set a+ only? Also I wanted to avoid sc as I don't think it'll fit with the car (which should remain looking fairly standard early 850.

[gs.davies]

Thanks, just digested that information in the spreadsheet and got a better idea of what I'd gain from the Mini Spares kit.

I presume the clubman ratio set (albeit being A+) also consists of a revised second and third gear?

Is it even possible to put A+ gears into an A series box?

[Richspec]

Is it even possible to put A+ gears into an A series box?

Thats supposedly what i got from Guessworks, to be honest it was that delayed that when it did come it was unwrapped and under the engine in minutes..

[ianh1968]

The key thing to check is the "nose" of the Third Motion Shaft...
This needs to be compatible with the First Motion Shaft.
(Or more correctly, the First Motion Shaft you buy should be
correct for the existing mainshaft).

The early pre-A+ version had a small nose of 14mm.
The later A+ version is referred to as 18mm.

These are both the outer diameter of the nose on the end of the
mainshaft/third motion shaft. The hole in the end of the first motion shaft
will obviously be bigger as a needle roller has to go inside it.

The later A+ laygears also had a "double step" to give a larger bearing
at the small end. The shafts are all compatible with the box castings,
but it may be necessary to get replacement thrust washers as well as
the correct needle rollers.

Technically speaking, once all the "helicals" are removed, it's only
these two factors which differentiate the original from A+.

Basically, you can put pretty much any 4 synchro kit in a 4 synchro box,
SO FAR AS I AM AWARE AND SUBJECT TO THE ABOVE.

I'm not sure if you can still get the "Clubman" first motion gear in the
early size. It may be possible to sleeve up the nose to the larger
size, or else sleeve down the recess in the fmg to the smaller size.
Either way, the thing would need to be case-hardened or otherwise it
would not last for long, I suspect... I've seen something along these
lines on this forum recently.

The Clubman kit was designed to be a cheaper alternative to the ST
set which used all new gears. The Clubman uses the standard 1st
and reverse.

The ST had a 19 tooth first motion gear. In order to provide
APPROXIMATELY the same ratios with the standard 1st gear in the
Clubman set, a 20 tooth first motion gear was used.

In ST, it looks like you can still get the small nose version,
but the kit is more expensive as more gears are included.
You also need to make sure that the reverse is a remote
type and not a rod-change one.

All the tooth counts are included in the spreadsheet...

The C-STN39 kit is A+.
This would have an 18mm bearing sized hole in the first motion shaft.
You can also quite clearly see from the picture that the small end of
the laygear has the larger sized recess for the "double-step" shaft.

If you don't already have an 18mm mainshaft, this could start to
get expensive.

Another thing to watch out for with the SCCR gears is the combination
of the diff ratio and camshaft specification - If the cam is too radical and
has a poor bottom end and the diff is too high, the clutch will take a real
pounding just to pull away... (Been there, done that - Not nice!)

Ian

[rich@minispares.com]

One slight detail that Ian has missed

You can fit a clubman into a remote box

But.....


You need to test fit the a plus layshaft into the case and make sure you can get the locking plate into the slot, in the past I have had to just get a tiny bit of the layshaft turned down to let it sit further into the case. You could get the case machined, but this is more complicated than having the shaft done

Oh, and double check that the third motion end of the main shaft will fit in the 'assembly groove' thats cast into the case (not all cases are as bad, i just carbide it out so anything goes)

I've got a clubman built into a 1128 case, so know 100 percent that it works once you have checked the above two issues

[Vegard]

Will the Clubman kit work with the standard remote reverse idler?
I must disagree in the layshaft though. I'd always modify the casing.... Grinding the layshaft? No thanks!

[gs.davies]

CORRECTION - This is in a 22G846 casing. Does that make any difference to the good advice given here?

[rich@minispares.com]

Will the Clubman kit work with the standard remote reverse idler?
I must disagree in the layshaft though. I'd always modify the casing.... Grinding the layshaft? No thanks!

the clubman uses the original first gear, so has no issues with a standard remote

to modify the casing correctly you would need to mill it, though I suppose you could just dremmel the hole where the layshaft goes through until it clears - you might have to open the thrust washer out as well.

I just got the shaft ground - far easier and cheaper

[gs.davies]

Maybe close (or closer) ratios are something for the next build, a '65 S alike..
I suppose an 1100 with a 295 and an SW5 will pull a 3.2 nicely.

[ianh1968]

If you have not downloaded the "Ratios" spreadsheet and want some
more numbers, please feel free to PM me with the details of your
proposed setup and I'll run them through the sausage machine...

Good luck in what ever you decide to do...

Ian

[Vegard]

Will the Clubman kit work with the standard remote reverse idler?
I must disagree in the layshaft though. I'd always modify the casing.... Grinding the layshaft? No thanks!

Swiftune now makes a layshaft for this conversion.
FYI

[Spider]

Will the Clubman kit work with the standard remote reverse idler?
I must disagree in the layshaft though. I'd always modify the casing.... Grinding the layshaft? No thanks!

Swiftune now makes a layshaft for this conversion.
FYI

I've just got a long series drill bit and I just relieve the case, easy, takes me longer to find the drill!

Then both standard A and A+ type shafts fit. Buy them anywhere.

[mk1]

I made a reamer out of a layshaft to relieve the case. Easy to do & FAR preferable to modifying layshafts.

[rich@minispares.com]

I made a reamer out of a layshaft to relieve the case. Easy to do & FAR preferable to modifying layshafts.

and dead easy to use, I think I have used it more than mark!

[Lakeland997]

Nice video here rebuilding the remote box with A+ gears:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYoM33pWEmA