battered FIA Cooper value

[oldspa]

Looking at a rather battered LHD MK1 Cooper with FIA papers for circuit racing. 1964 car with dubious parentage being sold as an 'S' and trying to get a rough idea of the value. No history with the car other than FIA HTP. Has been raced for many years and it looks like it. Bad sill repairs, lots of body damage that has been repaired with lots of filler, recently rebuilt engine but not in a high state of tune at 108 bhp from a 1275. The battered shell looks to be mk1 cooper judging by the riveted brackets in the boot but nothing to say that it is or isn't an 'S'. None of the numbers stack up.

Could be raced tomorrow but it would not be competitive as the engine needs money to get the power up, and then it would need chassis development, and to look right the shell would need considerable investment, and it should really be regarded as an 'S' replica rather than the genuine article in the absence of anything to the contrary.

What would be a best guess as to an approximate value

Thanks in anticipation......

[Vegard]

I'd pay £8000 for that

[YMJ]

I'd pay £8000 for that

Sorry Veggy, not on that description, I wouldn't!
engine rebuild....no scrub that....total engine/gbox replacement - £24k+VAT
total chassis resto - £9k +
FIA re-HTP visit cost £900 including fees and expenses (when does the current HTP expire?)
Rose Petals? ....set of - £700+VAT
what's the state of the cage like?......I could go on.

Buy my '64 rust-free shell instead for £4.5k and I'll throw in some subframes and some doors!

Seriously, even if you just want to keep up with me, Steve and Bill at the back, you might as well start from scratch because the bits you think you might use in the rebuild, you'll probably end up not using anyway.

Is it advertised anywhere where we can see it?

[Vegard]

I'd just stick a competitive engine in there and have fun 24k for an engine??
Brainwashed by Swiftune are we??.

[YMJ]

Well you could have a crack at building your own (motor) ~ I built mine for £9k but then I finish at the back and after a while that's not so much fun anymore.
Mark - where is your story on how you built your own historic racecar? Still excellent reading despite you deleting the (hilarious) comments re. the engine builder

[Yorkie 'S']

Agree whole heartedly with Tim,

I guess you need to answer the following question first and foremost before making a decision whether to buy this car or not

Why do you want to go historic racing and what series would you plan on racing in ?

It would then be an easy decision as to whether you should buy this car or not that would also give you an idea of how deep your pockets might need to be in terms of capital outlay and annual running costs.

Yorkie

[Pete]

engine/gbox replacement - £24k+VAT

Front running HSCC Class D Minis (of drivers I know) aren't spending anywhere near half of that , or has Tim Harber quietly won the lottery ?

[YMJ]

engine/gbox replacement - £24k+VAT

Front running HSCC Class D Minis (of drivers I know) aren't spending anywhere near half of that , or has Tim Harber quietly won the lottery ?

If you are running in U2TC, the Masters Historic Series, or if you're trying to catch Jarah Venables' eye in the forlorn hope of a Goodwood invitation, you'll not only need a top motor but also immediate back-up at short notice. Swifty offers this service and that is why he has a bit of a monopoly on producing the winning units in these races.
Sure you can have a laugh for a while, on the cheap, at the back of these series or enter other series where the top competition will not be, but after a while you'll want to be up there with Messrs Hack, Churchill, Baldwin, Swift, BeeBee and Wheeler, etc....and that's when the big money starts to be spent. (Remember there's a world of difference between an FIA AppK racing Mini and a non-descriptive Historic racing Mini - if you're caught with your front track width 5mm over, it's bollocking time and they're passing around the piano wire with which to torture you in front of a warmly applauding audience).
He has done a bloody good job at marketing himself into the first-bloke-you-go-to-for-a-motor for Mini racing people all over the World. This why he is now commanding £24k for a unit through market forces. I imagine also that there's a fair bit of willy waving going on in so far as the persons who flash the most cash get their motors built first and/or repaired first. As I mentioned earlier, I built mine for £9k using all the right bits but when it breaks, the only bloke who has the job of taking it out and repairing it is me and I've got a full-time job sorting out arthiritic hips and post-operative knees. ....so it tends to not get done very quickly. If I had a grown up job and the cash, I'd be able to ring a little bell and call up my "man" to do it instead.

Anyway, all this is still not getting the OP a decent estimate on what he should pay for this FIA Cooper. Veg says £8k. I say £4-5k tops. Anyone else?

[Pete]

Anyway, all this is still not getting the OP a decent estimate on what he should pay for this FIA Cooper. Veg says £8k. I say £4-5k tops. Anyone else?

Maybe it is slightly OT but still a relevant discussion I think. Maybe they should rename the class Appendix 24K?

I'd say probably about £5K aswell for a rotted tired racer, very detail dependant though on the condition of the box, quality of the head and crank etc.

[oldspa]

Dear All,

Thanks for your interest although I do find the engine gearbox costs a little hard to swallow.

9K to do shell check

700 Rose petals check

900 HTP check

But 24k on an A series? I thought swift tune sold appendix K heads for 2k? They say most of the power comes from the head. That leaves 22k to spend on the following:

Material costs: Assuming the S spec crank is servicable I would have thought it's the cost of a cam, pistons, chains, sprockets, then machining including knife edging the crank, truing up the tolerances (blueprinting) etc. Then perhaps trail assembly, dismantle, reassemble numerous times. However I would have thought the time involved per assemble, dismantle, reassemble cycle is minimal compared to a lot of engines, from a distance these A series appear simple in that respect, plus most of the time you're only assembling the rods to pistons, fitting the bearings and slipping it all into place to check deck heights etc. No needto asemble cam, chain, sprockets, except at final build?

On a cost plus reasonable profit margin I would have thought one would be pushing it to put more than 5k into such a simple bottom end which is still running standard crank and rods??? (This car has an lsd and straight cut gears so I would have thought the box could be left).

So Nick Swift is charging out on the basis of what the market will bear which he is fully entitled to do but in reality it seems to have little to do with the cost. I wonder what his invoices look like on an item by item basis.

So it would seem that racing minis is so competitive that the front runners are willing to pay about 15k for 2-3 bhp over and above anybody elses engine to remain at the front. On a pound per bhp that's pretty steep. I wonder if I need to look at some other form of historic racing regardless of what the car is worth.......

[YMJ]

What you say is all true but it simply isn't as simple as that.
If you'd like a one-to-one chat on this subject please PM me your number

[oldspa]

Thanks YMJ will be in touch. So this car is some kind of cooper with homolagation papers to say it is 'S' spec. Nothing to verify that it is a genuine 'S' and that's the difference. By way of comparison I wonder what it would have been worth if it were a verifiable 'S' albeit battered to hell, with papers, and requiring the same significant investment? At the end of the day I would have thought that a genuine 'S' would be a better bet as a basis for spending money in the long term if the acquisition costs were not too astronomical.

Or perhaps there aren't any comparable 'S's out there. In the wider market the classic car boom has left very few project cars out there for the old school fixer up enthusiasts like me....

[YMJ]

Ah. Now you're asking the right sort of questions. Since Goodwood 2009 FIA Minis have gone all bonkers.
'Look forward to speaking to you.

[Pete]

I wonder if I need to look at some other form of historic racing regardless of what the car is worth.......

App K certainly isn't something that can be done on a tight budget and be anywhere near competitive, too many well funded cars to compete against with all those very special bits that are constantly being developed - special cranks, recast heads, special dampers (suspension has also come along way!), dog boxes etc etc. Decent engineers don't stand still and neither does Mini race development, "historic" or not.
A lot of money came into it after Goodwood 09 yes you're right YMJ and cars that had previously been competitive were nowhere in that race. Because the likes of HSCC and CTCRC organise sprint races they don't attract those kind of budgets hence the bar is set somewhat lower in terms of budget. Some say the driving standards are similarly lower but I've seen lots of bent App K cars that negate that viewpoint.
I wouldn't personally see much mileage in the idea to invest in a genuine S as a starting point, few do (if any!?) , due to the fact it would stand a good chance of sustaining damage at one time or another and it'd just hurt more when it did!

[YMJ]

A lot of FIA appK owners are presently saying "Bollocks!" to the new initiative from the FIA that says that your HTP is now only valid for 5 years and that that one is now required to renew at pretty much the same cost as it was to obtain one in the first place, if not more!
Having gone to all the work involved in getting one in 2010, I have "sold out" and have arranged/paid the upfront (I must be insane) fee.

However.........there is a way out via the HSCC, CSCC and a few others who aren't bothered in the slightest as long as the entrant competes within the good-old-days spirit. Because Oldspa mentioned FIA in his OP, I presumed that that was what he wanted to do. If he just wants to go racing then he can for about half the cost. Looking forward to talking to you - I just didn't want to come across on a public forum and be accused of "lecturing" everyone.

[vegar]

24k + VAT??? Have the world gone mad???