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Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:02 pm
by ianh1968
I am getting fed up with replacing head gaskets.

Both of my engines have "alloy" 5 port heads that I got from MiniSpares.

I have always used the "Copper" type gaskets and have always had
problems with them going between 2 & 3. It was suggested that one
of the "Black" types was the best so I gave it a go.

I've just had to get the head off again, the "Black" gasket that I fitted
last time only having lasted 800 miles. It failed between 2 & 3.
:x

I read somewhere about a "Cometic" gasket. Does anyone here know
anything about these and if so, are they any good? Where can I get one?

Ian

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:57 pm
by minimans
I use Cometic gaskets on my Jag rebuilds and they are really good coming in different thicknesses as well! but having said that if you have blown that many gaskets in a short time I doubt very much it's the gaskets fault. have you checked the decks for true? unless it's a really big offset bore you should not be having gasket failures................

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:26 am
by 251 ENG
What is the block bore size ?

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:55 am
by Spider
Hey bugger you've had a bad run with gaskets.

This is from my own experience;-

Cometic certainly are the bee's knee's of head gaskets, normally re-useable (you'd want them to be at the price!) however they are not 'kind' to the deck face of alloy heads. I'll add that these gaskets are usually only warranted on boosted applications. Also, if there is another issue / cause of failure, then even a Cometic will give trouble.

The current range of those marked BK450 (black in colour) are utter rubbish. Maybe they were OK at some point, but certainly those that I've seen and tried in the past 3 - 4 years have failed in very short time. Well, that's been my experience, though some say they have had no problems.

I've used the Cooper Gaskets with great success for a very long time and still currently use them, though they are different these days since the removal of asbestos from them about 20 years back. I'll also add to that that preparation is everything though if success is to be assured, and if everything is not at 110% or better, then a copper gasket will give trouble in very quick time. I've also found in every case that the engines run just that tiniest bit cooler with the copper gaskets as they allow heat transfer through them where as the black ones are a heat insulator. This has a broader effect than maybe first realised, in that the block and head decks are going to expand at a considerably closer rate to each other with one that will transfer heat. Since they expand at the same rate, less chaffing, and better sealing results. In 90 times out of 100, the copper gasket is re-useable too.

Just coming back to preparation, in many cases of 'bad gaskets' - not all, just many - I've found that poor or inadequate or over-looked preparation has been the cause.

Deck flatness we all know is important, but even more so is finish. A milled finish, particularly in the case of copper gaskets, will give trouble. I generally grind finish the decks, however I have also oil stoned finished the decks too (prior to being able to grind them), while giving awesome results, it usually takes around 2 - 3 hours to get there, if the (mill) finish was pretty good to start with.

Next up, remove the top 2 - 3 threads from those for the studs in the block. This spreads the area of effect of the stud when torqued up, roughly by a factor of 3 to 4. Lightly chamfer the holes. Which actually reminds me that putting an overly big chamfer on the bores in the block can also lead to gasket failure. They only need be big enough to remove any burr from the decking operations and to remove that sharp edge and glow plug that can occur.

Head studs and nuts. Be absolutely certain that the studs are all the same material / treatment and age / number of cycles. If not, then there will be variations between the clamping forces of each stud. I know ARP Studs and nuts are good, however, I've probably had better success with the very late factory types along with the flanged nuts. I have come across a few so call genuine ones in recent times that 'wobbled' when screwed in to the block, clearly they were not and I have seen a few case where these break off in the block. This comes about because as they are being torqued up, they are also being pulled straight, bending and loading one side of the stud, instead of even loading through the core of the stud. If you find any that wobble as they go in, I'd suggest binning them. I torque the late factory items to 50 ft/lb over 5 steps. I also 'bed' in the threads by first torquing them up dry 4 times, then finally with oil. I think ARP have some good advice on this. When we build an engine here, we have log sheets for recording lots of info, including the length (at the time of fitting) of the head studs. Then at later times, if the head is ever removed, we can measure the studs again to check for stretch, which would be a fail of course. I have to say, I haven't had a fail in a genuine stud yet.

Also, don't overlook the rocker pillars, the quality of them or the deck pads on the head, again, I grind finish them. Also, the locking plate for the screw that locates the rocker shaft. It seems that there were 2 types, on that was short and fitted only under the rocker stud and the long one which also went under the head stud. If you have the latter, give it the chop so that it only fits up under the rocker stud.

After the initial run up to operating temp, I let them cool overnight then re-torque again. I usually do them again around the 1000 km mark as well, but not always (Yeah, OK, I'm lazy).

So, that's been my experience.

Opps, sorry for waffling,,,,,,,,,, :P

PM also sent.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:40 am
by ianh1968
Spider wrote: The current range of those marked BK450 (black in colour) are utter rubbish.
erm... so I have just found out! I think that I'll stick the copper one on, then.
Spider wrote: I've also found in every case that the engines run just that tiniest bit cooler
with the copper gaskets as they allow heat transfer through them where as
the black ones are a heat insulator.
I had wondered about this too...
Spider wrote: I generally grind finish the decks
Mine too...
Spider wrote: Next up, remove the top 2 - 3 threads from those for the studs in the block.
This spreads the area of effect of the stud when torqued up, roughly by a factor of 3 to 4.
Had not heard of this before, but seems logical...
I go for a chamfer on the stud/other holes and just a very light stoning of the bore edge,
just enough that I don't slice my fingers off when I'm working...
Spider wrote: Head studs and nuts.
The engine with the "gone" head gasket has "miscellaneous" studs and the latest
Rover type flanged nuts. The other engine has the ARP studs and nuts. Maybe I'll
invest in another set of ARP...
Spider wrote: Also, don't overlook the rocker pillars <SNIP>
Also, the locking plate for the screw that locates the rocker shaft.
One engine has the "single hole" tag, the other has a hex headed tapered grub-screw
that has no tag at all...
Spider wrote: After the initial run up to operating temp, I let them cool overnight then re-torque again.
I usually do them again around the 1000 km mark as well, but not always (Yeah, OK, I'm lazy).
Pretty much the same as me, but 500 miles, as we have over here...

I am sure that I will get to the bottom of this at some point...

Thanks!

Ian

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:06 pm
by Smiffy
Check the centre brass plug hasn't sunk, if it has you've got a couple of options.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:43 am
by Spider
Smiffy wrote:Check the centre brass plug hasn't sunk, if it has you've got a couple of options.
Pretty sure the Alloy Heads don't have a Brass Plug.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:54 pm
by ianh1968
Spider wrote:
Smiffy wrote:Check the centre brass plug hasn't sunk,
if it has you've got a couple of options.
Pretty sure the Alloy Heads don't have a Brass Plug.
Exactly correct, no brass plug...

The gaskets are "going" at the thinnest part between 2 & 3,
ie, where the two exhaust valves are together in the centre,
so it's more than likely going to be an excessive heat related
issue. Or at least, the heat isn't helping matters...

These photos are the second of these heads that I have done.
The first one, ie with the blown gasket was cut back a bit thinner
in the centre - I held back on the MkII...

The plugs are 12mm, I use Champion RA6HC. The chambers on
this one are 15.5cc which is OK on 1330cc-1380cc with a 643/286
cam, but too small for 1480cc with a 276.

The spout on the tap end is my own modification. As supplied the
heads have a dish-type core-plug which I removed and replaced
with a 5/16" thick ally disk with a 3/8" BSP thread in it. Depending
on which of my cars the head is fitted to, the outlet will either be
blanked off, or will have a pipe to my auxiliary radiator in the front
grille. This dumps about 8 degrees centigrade...

Note also, the oil transfer channel which is cut into the face of the
head. The oil goes up round the outside of the head stud and
re-joins its usual routing via another short channel between the
stud hole and the rocker pillar centre on the top of the head.
This method can also be used to "fix" other heads where the
decking operation has broken through into the oil gallery.

On inspecting the latest gasket more closely, it may be that I am
torquing the heads down too tight. I did read somewhere to go up
as high as 60lb/ft and this is what I have been using - I think that
maybe I'll try something a bit less, say 50lb/ft. Maybe 60lb/ft is
OK on a copper type, but too much on a "cardboard" type?

Perhaps 60lb/ft is just too much, full-stop?

Ian

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:51 pm
by Spider
Nice work on the head there Ian :)
ianh1968 wrote:
Perhaps 60lb/ft is just too much, full-stop?

Ian
I've never gone that far with them, so I can't comment from experience, however measuring the before and after lengths of the studs will tell a story. If you don't have the before lengths, then measure the diameters at 5 points along the length of the stud, though stretch can be considerably harder to pick up this way and also depends on the finish of the stud.

Also, wipe the block deck over say 5 - 6 times with an Oil Stone to check if any of the threads (or any other area) are pulling up or distorting.

Just coming back to what I mentioned re: removal of the top 3 -4 threads from the stud holes in the block, this not only increase the area of influence of the fastener, but also moves it away from the stud, which after all goes though the gasket where there is no material to clamp.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:27 pm
by ianh1968
Spider wrote:Nice work on the head there Ian :)
Thanks... I cut both of these ally heads with a cable-drive type Dremel.
It's far quicker/easier than doing an iron head!
ianh1968 wrote: Perhaps 60lb/ft is just too much, full-stop?
Ian
I have been to the machinist today and he has a 1275cc Midget, turboed
to produce around 150Bhp...

He uses the BK450 (Cardboard) gasket and torques it down to the figure
in the original Leyland manual, ie 42lb/ft. Moreover, he does not re-torque
these heads down afterwards, ever.

Been doing 'A' Series since the '60's and has never had a gasket blow.

... and he uses valve guide seals on both the inlets AND the exhausts...
Spider wrote: Also, wipe the block deck over say 5 - 6 times with an Oil Stone to check
if any of the threads (or any other area) are pulling up or distorting.
I spent an hour-and-a-half doing this yesterday...

What an eye-opener!
:shock:

I had always thought that I got my decks quite clean, but using a stone told
me that there is more to it than a quick scrape and plenty of solvent.

As Spider suggested, many of the stud-holes were slightly raised and the
whole thing generally felt a bit rough before its treatment. I now have clean
shiny metal virtually everywhere. One or two water gallery marks are still
visible but I am not concerned about that as that was not where the problem
was. The stud holes are quite well countersunk, so I did not remove any
more of the threads as the engine is still in the car and I didn't want to drop
swarfe in places where it shouldn't go...

The stoning is certainly an operation that I will not omit in the future as I am
sure that the general build-up of "whatever" and the lumps and bumps cannot
be helping matters.

When the head comes back from the 'shop, I am going to use a BK450
gasket, basically because I have three of them now and I am prepared to
give this type another chance.

I shall be torquing the head down to 42lb/ft and leaving it at that.
I will also be fitting guide seals on all valves.

Watch this space...

Ian

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:40 pm
by GraemeC
Not intended as a 'suck eggs' comment, but are you sure your torque wrench is in calibration?

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:03 pm
by swifty
Got a great tip of Keith ripp many years ago . Put a small piece of copper wire on the thin piece of the head gasket between the cylinders then torque it up 5 ft l/b s extra once it's run up . I've never had a head gasket go and I've had several 74mm bores in various engines with high compression ... . All with the copper head gasket . ... Ken

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:11 pm
by Smiffy
swifty wrote:Got a great tip of Keith ripp many years ago . Put a small piece of copper wire on the thin piece of the head gasket between the cylinders then torque it up 5 ft l/b s extra once it's run up . I've never had a head gasket go and I've had several 74mm bores in various engines with high compression ... . All with the copper head gasket . ... Ken
Also in the Janspeed video.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:08 pm
by Spider
swifty wrote:Got a great tip of Keith ripp many years ago . Put a small piece of copper wire on the thin piece of the head gasket between the cylinders then torque it up 5 ft l/b s extra once it's run up . I've never had a head gasket go and I've had several 74mm bores in various engines with high compression ... . All with the copper head gasket . ... Ken
I do similar with the Honda TC Head conversions, only I cut them from copper tube.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:18 am
by Spider
ianh1968 wrote:
Spider wrote: Also, wipe the block deck over say 5 - 6 times with an Oil Stone to check
if any of the threads (or any other area) are pulling up or distorting.
I spent an hour-and-a-half doing this yesterday...

What an eye-opener!
:shock:

I had always thought that I got my decks quite clean, but using a stone told
me that there is more to it than a quick scrape and plenty of solvent.

As Spider suggested, many of the stud-holes were slightly raised and the
whole thing generally felt a bit rough before its treatment. I now have clean
shiny metal virtually everywhere. One or two water gallery marks are still
visible but I am not concerned about that as that was not where the problem
was. The stud holes are quite well countersunk, so I did not remove any
more of the threads as the engine is still in the car and I didn't want to drop
swarfe in places where it shouldn't go...

The stoning is certainly an operation that I will not omit in the future as I am
sure that the general build-up of "whatever" and the lumps and bumps cannot
be helping matters.
Ian
Well, there you go! My suggesting of initially rubbing the stone with only 5 -6 swipes was mearly to show up any irregularities and from that, if further work may be needed, which sounds like in your case, yes.

My own experience with various gaskets over the years has shown me that harder gaskets, like Copper, need a much much 'cleaner' surface in order to work than softer gaskets, like say the BK450 style of gasket. Also, that harder gaskets work far better in applications like head gaskets, having high temps, hot gases, and the like than softer gaskets, but only if prepared properly. I guess you could sum this up by saying that harder gaskets are more fussy, but when fussed over, give better performance.

Apparently there was a 'bad batch' of the BK450's getting about a few years back (maybe someone could confirm or shed some light?). The Manufacturer did promise to look in to it and give some feed back on it all. I have tried a few of these over the years, and had some fail, usually on higher performance applications, however, I have always noted that the BK450 has shown distress (if not blown) where as the copper ones, when fitted as a replacement, do not. In fact, thinking back, the only head gaskets I've ever had let go have been the BK450's. I've also heard from others similar stories and yet others who have had no problems.

Interesting suggestion from your machinist on torquing up. Not one I've tried (in the case of head fasteners) I have to say, but it does show that 'tighter' may not always be 'better'. Did he say what studs / nuts he uses? My concern here is that if there is insufficient stretch in the fasten towards the upper end of it's elastic range from tightening it up, then it can be found to be elastic in use. So the tensioning (or more importantly, the stretch) set in the fastener is highly relevant to the grade of the fastener. There is (from memory) some very enlightening info on the ARP website on the subject.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 1:06 pm
by mk1coopers
All I can say is get it sorted, I've just had another failure and this time the block has suffered between 3 and 4 and will need to be replaced, an expensive lesson learned, the other thing to check is piston height in the bore, thanks to the advise of another forum Member (who should now be getting another bottom end to do soon :D :lol: ) I've had a look at the gasket and there may be evidence of number 4 touching it :(

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:10 am
by 850man
I am about to have a .020 solid copper shim made for our race car engine. I have always used the rubber "turbo" BK450 but I had two let go at the one race meeting and ended up using a std grey BK450 that I got off a fellow mini racer (I only had 1 spare) the std gasket did 2 more race meetings with no problems, untill the crank broke :?
Before the days of the BK450 the old grey head gaskets were fine, it seems that since everyone has gone to the rubber version the troubles have begin. I will purchase a Cometic steel shim gasket for our 2nd race engine and see how that goes too.

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:16 am
by 69k1100
You must get to a point where you question the whether the faces are perpendicular to the bolts. A gasket is only there to compensate for the irregularities in a Deck/head face. If you grind them flat, then oilstone them even flatter then what use does a gasket serve, especially when a steel gasket is used.

If you're still having issues have you looked at oiling the head stud threads, or checking if they're bottoming out before the correct torque? Thought about o-ringing the head/block?

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:22 pm
by pad4
Possible stupid question alert

Wouldent it be possible to make a gasket from a sheet of copper or other material then - i guess there would be problems with the fire rings though or would there ?

pad

Re: Large Bore Head Gaskets

Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:09 pm
by 850man
pad4 wrote:Possible stupid question alert

Wouldent it be possible to make a gasket from a sheet of copper or other material then - i guess there would be problems with the fire rings though or would there ?

pad
Yes, that is what I am having made. The flame rings are replaced with an "O" ring, basically a groove is machined into the head and the block that can accecpt a stainless steel wire "ring".