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Hi, I wondered if you guys could help me figure out, what manufacture made these wheels I have.i have had them in my garage for sometime now. They are 4 1/2 wide inside rim diameter by 10 inch. I cannot for the life of me, find any kind of stamping on these wheels. I have tried searching the internet but with no avail? Are they possible early cooper car co one's? All i have figured out is they but be relatively early because of the way the center of the wheel is machined. The weight of each wheel minus wheel nuts etc… is about 8 lbs (weight on bathroom scale.) Please could someone shed some light on the these wheels.

Kind Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

i might shed some light on those wheels...

1959si wrote:They are 4 1/2 wide inside rim diameter by 10 inch. [...]Are they possible early cooper car co one's? All i have figured out is they but be relatively early because of the way the center of the wheel is machined.

4 1/2" speaks for cooper cor co ones, as the one Nick Vortz did, all have 4,75" width. Also the very rough texture speaks for this.
If I see it correctly, the wheel centre is protuding out of the rim/not flush with the rims edges?
All those hints make them easily identifiable as cooper car co or derrington ones... (which have, as far as I´m aware, been delivered by the same source...)

The only thing different from the derrington ad(below), is the weight. But there has been another set around and discussed on here just very recently which had around the same weight and have definitely been identified as cooper car co ones...

Best regards, Michael

Awesome wheels really really love them £59 original price.. I would give you £60 allowing for inflation.....

Good stash those wheels... Get them blinded up.. And on a car.....

They do look like CCC ones, look in great nik !

Great looking wheels, I'll go up to £61 each

Thank you all for your swift reply's and information regarding these wheels. I have checked the wheels and as you say yes Michael the centers do protrude out further than the rim. I am baffled still as to what material these are made from as in the advert you posted below states magnesium, and without doing a spark test, it is hard to distinguish aluminum and magnesium apart from luster in some cases. As for the weight issuer maybe the low figure mentioned in the advert was slightly lower than the actual weight to lure in customers of extreme weight saving. Do these wheels require spacers at the back in-between the wheel and the drum? Are there any more distinct areas/measurements on these wheels that could further clarify their origin?

Kind Regards,

Simon

I'd say looking at the back of them they are designed for S running gear.

They look more aluminum than magnesium to me

They were some copies made in the 1960,s in Denmark of the CCC originals I believe

251 ENG wrote:They look more aluminum than magnesium to me

Distinguishing aluminium from magnesium on pictures isn´t really easy... It could either be the one or the other, or it could also be an MgAl alloy...
(Best procedure for getting to know which material it is "at home" would be measuring it´s volume by measuring it´s displacement in e.g. water precisely and measuring its weight also very precisely to determine it´s density. A comparison to other alloys may then give some evidence.)

251 ENG wrote:They were some copies made in the 1960,s in Denmark of the CCC originals I believe

The rosepetals made in Denmark can be ruled out here, because they were in 6x10". They´ve been made by Ole Rytter for Erik Hoejer, a danish racing champion. And there are just two sets known to be in existance...

Very Interesting indeed, so if they are not Danish wheels then what are they?

The luster of the rim would suggest Aluminium, however unlike pure magnesium which has a dull appearance, these could be as Michael mentioned be a MgAl (Alloy)

Was there other company at the time making these?

Now for the formidable question in which most forum posts result in, what are they worth? This way i can determine to spend time and money on restoring them, or just have them as pieces of stationary art.

Kind Regards,

Simon

Mighty fine wheels.

I don't think they are the very early (original) Cooper Car Co ones.

They look too smooth to be (old) magnesium.
The reverse side has a few differences to the early CCCs.
They had a very small lug/spacer on the end of the four thin webs that seat against the hub yours are flush. They did not have any holes drilled in these webs. I notice yours have two. Also the centre had an extra stepped lip on the inside whereas yours do not.

If I could post a picture it would be clear. Unlike my description!

They could well be the ones in the ad above or could they be an early Vortz copy? Quality looks good.

£65 cash, that's my final offer.

I would say they are not a Vortz wheel, the casting on the spokes just doesn't look to be good enough quality for Nick, they are interesting though, £66

Can anyone tell something more about the danish version ?
I bought my Rosepetals in Denmark and am not sure about them.
They look very similar to the ones in this thread, but are not the same ones....

I'm in agreement that these do not look like original 1960's Mini racing wheels as used by the works cooper cars & sold through Derrington amongst others. They are in far too good a condition. I have had a number of sets of these early mag wheels and they have ALL been in a pretty obvious state of decline, some much worse than others, but all have shown some signs of deterioration due to corrosion. These look almost perfect which makes me think that they are aluminium alloy of some type. As to where they came from or who made them, I am as clueless as everyone else.

As a side issue pure alumimium would never be used for wheels, an alloy would always be used & that alloy would certainly contain some magnesium.

I am aware that wheels could not be made of just pure Aluminum as on its own aluminum is to soft and another metal of superior strength (Magnesium) would need to be mixed in order to create an alloy, strong enough to withstand the forces applied to wheels under stress.

As for the maker it looks, as thought no further light can be shed on this as Mark has stated. I will have them lightly blasted in the coming days and see what they look like after that and maybe preform a test on them to determine the properties of the alloy. Like Mark says these must be of an Aluminium based alloy, due to the luster and the lack of deterioration. If anyone can shed anymore light i would be most appreciative of this information. Maybe they will forever be a mystery.

Thanks again for everyones contribution in the matter.


Regards,

Simon

A method to determine whether they are magnesium ( although NOT recomended in these pc days ) is to take a very small ammount of fine filings from these and put a flame to them!!! if Mag it will definately flare
SO IT IS NOT RECOMENDED
I remember from my racing days dipping the tips of a colleagues Woodbines in some filings and watching the results ( the foolish things we did in our youth!!! )

Graham

1959si wrote:I am aware that wheels could not be made of just pure Aluminum as on its own aluminum is to soft and another metal of superior strength (Magnesium) would need to be mixed in order to create an alloy, strong enough to withstand the forces applied to wheels under stress.

As for the maker it looks, as thought no further light can be shed on this as Mark has stated. I will have them lightly blasted in the coming days and see what they look like after that and maybe preform a test on them to determine the properties of the alloy. Like Mark says these must be of an Aluminium based alloy, due to the luster and the lack of deterioration. If anyone can shed anymore light i would be most appreciative of this information. Maybe they will forever be a mystery.

Thanks again for everyones contribution in the matter.


Regards,

Simon

Mark , exactly my thoughts

251 ENG wrote:They look more aluminum than magnesium to me

They were some copies made in the 1960,s in Denmark of the CCC originals I believe

251 ENG, do you have further information on those danish rosepetals? The ones by Ole Rytter are the only ones known to me, up to now...

Maybe I´ve been to fast with ruling the danish rims out, but I never read or heard about danish rosepetals, except the 6x10" ones by Rytter before... Does any one have any information about other danish makes?

'S'-type wrote:They look too smooth to be (old) magnesium.

Yeah I agree with this, they look very smooth, either they are mainly magnesium and have been stored quite good, or they are mainly aluminum... It´s quite hard to tell this just by pictures! (But compared to other pictures of magnesium wheels, they look far to good.) So I also think they are made of an alloy mainly consisting from aluminium...

mk1 wrote:As a side issue pure aluminium would never be used for wheels, an alloy would always be used & that alloy would certainly contain some magnesium.

I know, by writing of aluminium and magnesium i intended to say that they either contain more aluminium or more magnesium in their alloy. I´m sorry about creating confusion by this and should have formulated it a lot clearer, especially because i´ve heard material science as part of my studying...

'S'-type wrote:They could well be the ones in the ad above or could they be an early Vortz copy? Quality looks good.

Maybe they are those from the derrington ad.... I´ve been told once, that the derrington one´s are similiar to the cooper ones, but i´ve never had one in my hands to make a comparison. (Maybe they haven´t been that exact copys of the cooper ones?)
Does anybody in here know more about the derrington ones?

They are definitely no early vortz ones. Here, the centre hub is protruding from the wheel, whereas nick changed this on his CRs. If you take an vortz wheel, the central hub should just protrude as far out of the rim as the rim flange. Nick Vortz did some sand cast prototypes, but they do also have this characteristics....


Very interesting thread about those wheels, and lots of interesting information on this topic here..

Best Regards, Michael

m1cH1 wrote:
251 ENG, do you have further information on those danish rosepetals?
The ones by Ole Rytter are the only ones known to me, up to now...

Maybe I´ve been to fast with ruling the danish rims out, but I never read or heard about danish rosepetals, except the 6x10" ones by Rytter before... Does any one have any information about other danish makes?

Very interesting thread about those wheels, and lots of interesting information on this topic here..

Best Regards, Michael

Maybe I can be of assistence. I will ask Poul (the race mechanic who had the 6",s made) .

But I seriusly doubt any 4 or 4.5",s were made, as I never saw a Danish picture of such a setup, on a Danish car.

I know several Danish Mini racing drivers from the 60ies, and had access to some of the scrapbooks from back then.
The only Rose Petal,s in all the pics were the 6" on Erik,s car.

More to follow



Jens Christian

Would be great to know more about this, Jens Christian!
(Maybe you´ll get also some information on the 6x12",as there is just very little details, one can find about those on the web... And just one single picture of them...)

Also some news from VORTZ. Richard from the "Vortz Racing Cars" Page on Facebook showed the pictures of those wheels to Nick Vrotsos and he had some interesting information on the manufacturing of those wheels. Seems to be that someone made just a small batch of those wheels, and this definitely wasn´t VORTZ!

Here is the message as posted on facebook:
(->https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... nt_count=1)

IT’S A MYSTERY BUT NOT A VORTZ

A question has been asked on mk1 forum as to who made these wheels. I asked Nick to take a look just in case he could throw some light on them. Said they were not Vortz early sand casting, or AM’s. But he did think that they were not from a very large outfit because the bolt holes have been drilled from the back. The reason he says this is he said a drilling jig has been made up and used, and the two holes in the rear are the jig locaters. He said they would have done this because they probably drilled the first ones conventionally from the front and not on a mill, but more than likely with a pillar drill and without a properly ground stub bit, and in doing so, the hole has wondered off when exiting the back. By drilling from the back would have guaranteed them the bolt hole at least would have ended up in line with stud, even if they had arrived at a bit of an angle, also when you look at the fronts, they are well off the centres of the bosses, which he thinks confirms his thinking, because if drilled from the front first, these would have started more central. So from that, he thinks, not very competent machine shop, and also a shop without a mill, so definitely not Aeroplane and Motor. If anyone wants to post that on Mk1 forum, could help a little. Richard