mk1-forum.net

As some of you may know, stated on the current 'Downton Engineering Works Ltd' website is:

"We are now entering a new stage of our development, offering a range of interesting branded Downton products while gradually building an offering for owners of more modern vehicles. Over the coming months we will be expanding our range of Downton branded styling and tuning products for the classic Mini and other classic cars. The web-site is under continual development and we will be adding new products as they become available, so please bookmark us and check back regularly."

I am constantly browsing this forum (and try to input where i can, but it seems most of the time i am just watching and learning!) I'm increasingly gaining a better understanding on such an ambiguous subject... (being a young member is difficult, as there is clearly a lot of incorrect information across the web - trying to sift through it all!)

But just how much originality is left today? I have read everything visible on "http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/" by Mark... (THANK YOU!) but the gap in history from 1976-present, following the closure of the business is puzzling. The current 'Downton Engineering Works Ltd' website sates here:

"Re-launched in the early 1990’s, Downton continued to offer a range of tuning products to Mini enthusiasts, utilising the skills of many of the original employees, while building a number of limited edition cars during the last days of Rover Mini production. Unique and bespoke customer conversions on new and used chassis continued and with the dawn of the new millennium Downton had become well known within the classic car world.
Downton continue to offer products, services and sales to modern and classic car enthusiasts, and will keep building on the company values established in the 50’s and 60’s when a wide variety of vehicles were catered for."

Coincidentally, i have just seen on ebay, an item from the current 'Downton Engineering Works Ltd' (Seems legitimate):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Downton-Ename ... 1211447215

In a non-offensive manner to anybody that may have purchased one, do these reproduction badges actually have a connection to the original 'Downton' business? And also, any comments on the items appearance visually?

I hope not to cause any tension of sorts, but it is a highly interesting subject for me that i would like to discover more about...

Thom

chichestermini wrote: "Re-launched in the early 1990’s, Downton continued to offer a range of tuning products to Mini enthusiasts, utilising the skills of many of the original employees"

I think that's what's called 'artistic license'

In a word no !!!.... One man and his dog amongst many others are now churning out copies....How many Downton Engineering companies have there been since the demise of the original firm is it 2 ????......foxy52

Hahaha cheers Pete, i imagined that would appear!

Ah, that's not a surprise to me at all actually to hear that!

Does anybody actually own (even better, have fitted) a 'half-decent' reproduction badge? I know, like most things mini-related, you just can't beat authentic NOS... (I won't go there in relation to this badge however ) However, do any of these repro's even cut it at all? The badge marketed by the current 'Downton Engineering Works Ltd' does look slightly less 'chavved up' than some other examples i've encountered!!

Thom

Here's one of their badges on a rocker cover I did, slightly 'de-blinged' before fitting

chichestermini wrote:Does anybody actually own (even better, have fitted) a 'half-decent' reproduction badge? I know, like most things mini-related, you just can't beat authentic NOS... (I won't go there in relation to this badge however ) However, do any of these repro's even cut it at all?

the trouble with 99% of the repro badges is that they are either the wrong size, screen printed, made with frog green soft enamel, made using modern processes etc. the old original badges where made in a very 'old school' way, which is why its impossible to 'age' a modern 'single process' badge to have that authentic multi layered patina that the 'proper' badges do.

mark is probably the foremost expert on whats right or not, but of course some people don't want to hear what he has to say on the subject.....I wonder why.......?????

Mk1 cooper the rocker cover looks very nice.

. It would be great if one of the good engine builder got hold of the name. Would be nice to see Downton on a race program again!

Thanks for the photo, that looks like a very good one - may i ask where you purchased it from?

Yes, guru, definitely. It's a difficult one... Does anybody know if there are any 'authentic' and 'original' (Eugh, those horrible words!! ) badges left even today? I doubt it clearly, but it's worth a dig...

Haha, perhaps mark may stay hidden on this matter! Seems almost taboo!!

Nevsmini, i couldn't agree more. Can only sit and cross my fingers and toes for something like that to happen!!!

Nevsmini wrote:Mk1 cooper the rocker cover looks very nice.

. It would be great if one of the good engine builder got hold of the name. Would be nice to see Downton on a race program again!

Thanks Nev, a couple of rattle cans / badges from Rich and some elbow grease can give good results, the badge is one of the 'Downton.com' ones, I just put it on some 1200 on a flat surface to take the shine off it a little, then gave it a quick rub with G3

Thanks from the tip, I will do this on mine too. Looks great !

UHR850

Don't know how I didn't catch this one earlier.

In brief;

The original Downton Engineering Works Ltd - Opened in 1947 & Closed in 1976 with the death of Bunty Richmond one of the original 2 owners, Daniel had died some years previously of a massive stroke while he was at the Dentist. The company was wound up & all records etc were destroyed. Some former employees did continue the tradition of great quality work, some (but by no means all) who jump to mind are Bill Quine (Manx Racing), Bryan Slark (Slark Race Engines), Jan Odor (Janspeed), Dave Dorrington (Maniflow), & of course Richard Longman.

The current Downton Engineering Works Ltd. - Was formed on 14/12/1993 by Stuart Edward Michleburgh who bought the name from Companies house. Eventually they decided to sell the name which was bought & is currently owned by Christopher Thacker who became the managing director on 14/5/2004. This incarnation has done little but sell the odd badge & branded accessory since. He did at one time threaten to sue me for producing the replica key rings I used to do (some of which I still have), but we managed to sort it out when I gave him an original Downton badge to have copied. The badges he currently sells on the Downton web site are almost perfect copies of the originals.

There have also been umpteen "Downton Engineering"'s, "Downton Taurus Engineering"'s & no doubt 101 other variations on the theme, none of which have amounted to anything at all & are simply trying to jump on a very crowded band wagon.

The reason a "real" engine tuner would not be interested in buying the name is that they would rather make a name for themselves than rely on someone else's made some 40 or 50 years ago.

While I commend Chris Thacker for his excellent Downton Badge replica it's a shame he doesn't seem to be able to make more out of the name.

No doubt I have offended a couple of people who appreciate the later Downton cars, this is not a deliberate slight on my part, it's just that I and I reckon MOST Downton fans feel that the company & what it stood for died in 1976.

Just my 2 pennorth & different people are welcome to their own personal & different views.

M

Amen.

Mark,

That's exactly the response i was looking for, and has certainly filled the void for me on this touchy subject. I feel as though what you have done/are doing is very admirable, you most certainly can't please everybody...

The current badge most certainly looks the part, and it will be interesting to see what else arrives as part of this "new stage of development".

The mentioned former employees are now 'household names' for mini enthusiasts, and it's just a clear reminder to me just how important the original Downton Engineering Works Ltd was in the development of the mini - almost right from the outset of it's production!!

Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to write this, i really appreciate it!

Thom

I'm currently reading Graham Robson's "The A series Engine: Its First Sixty Years". Something I hadn't appreciated was Richmond/Downton's involvement in the development of the Cooper engines. I'd assumed that it was all done by Coopers.

Tim

Coopers had nothing to do with the development of the engine. It was all BMC / Downton. JC Just had the original idea & put his name on it.

Dtn did much cylinder head development for BMC, some that spring to mind are the 12G295, the 163, the 12G940. It was this development work that made the Richmonds very wealthy people.

An article I wrote years ago goes into thie in some depth.

http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.u ... on_bmc.htm

Mark F

Interesting read. I guess the deal with BMC was the proverbial golden handcuffs.

Tim

Or maybe even a golden noose

I am currently updating the main MK1 web site, and came across this letter that is an excellent illustratiuon of how closely Downton & BMC worked together.

This is particularly interesting as it shows that Dan Richmond @ Downton was well aware of the cracking issue with the "new" 163 head long before it went into production. His suggested remedy was only addopted upon introduction of the 940 head some years later.



Interesting read isn't it!

M

Very interesting document, Mark.
I take this opportunity to congratulate you for the new presentation of the site.

Thank you

Michel

Thank you for sharing Mark.

It's just typical of BMC though with the cost cutting etc.
I wonder how many 163 heads had to changed under warranty and at what cost to BMC themselves.?