Has anyone managed to replace sections of the steel hydrolastic pipes?
I bought replacements today from a very well known parts supplier and having tried to 'first fit' them I'm really disappointed with the alignment.... well, lack of. 3 inches adrift from the bulkhead union is a bit more than a 'tweak' will deal with.
The old pipes are mostly fine, just the rear most section from the heel board bend onwards that are quite pitted.
I'm thinking of having them cut and a new section welded on via a sleeve..... has anyone done this?
I bought a pair of replacement metal hydro pipes from m-machine and ....................they didn't fit. The bends under the floor up and around the front subframe were wrong. Had to cut both pipes just forward of the handbrake and rotate them to fit, then I used a pair of 3/8" compression fittings to rejoin the pipes, not very successfully as they both weep slightly.
This has been the only problem with m-machine as have had and fitted many of their bespoke panels successfully.
I'd identify exactly where the pipe was wrong and use a 3/8" hand-held pipe bender to bend them into the right shape.
If you ain't got or ain't got the inclination to use a pipe bender then READ NO FURTHER because you'll just kink your pipes.
Slowly do it, a bit at a time. A slight bend here, correction to the curvature without twisting there until they fit perfectly. If it's too long - it's usually slightly too long - when it gets to the front end (easier at the front) cut a carefully measured section out, clean up and do one of two things.
a) join up the two ends using a short length of copper pipe with correct i/dia. Tin and soft solder in place. JUST as done on Centurion high pressure fire supression system. Or,
b) fit the compression ferrules, measure up accurately, clean up, tin and soft solder the ferrules to the pipe before you clamp down. I would imagine that there are other options than soft solder
Time, about an hour on a good day - or 2 hours if you try to rush
Time past there was Soft Solder Fluid supplied that painted on then component assembled then heated..maybe its still around ? ..or Locktite products such as Bearing Fit or Pipe Seal also work very well within Hydraulic pipe applications with much higher system pressure for example within Hydraulic Cranes.
I'm reluctant to start trying to adjust the new pipes as they are so out of shape that I'd have to correct several bends to get the alignment but this would then affect the length and that's just a nightmare. Either another supplier (although they possibly all source from the same place, can't imagine too many suppliers of these?) or a refund will be sought.
Would the solder method work on the original steel pipes? Seem to remember that the system runs at around 30 bar.... would solder hold that?
Polarsilver wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:30 pm
Time past there was Soft Solder Fluid supplied that painted on then component assembled then heated..maybe its still around ? ..or Locktite products such as Bearing Fit or Pipe Seal also work very well within Hydraulic pipe applications with much higher system pressure for example within Hydraulic Cranes.
Are you trying to fit the pipe with the subframes in place ?. I don't know how you can do this with a pre shaped pipe. I'm just curious to see how you are determining that the fit isn't correct if the subframes are on the car.
My only addition to my previous post would be NEVER EVER try to TWIST a pipe to shape it. Always BEND it into shape, using an easily available plumbers hand held pipe bender.
As for the strength of the soldered joints...... On a richter scale of hydraulic pressures, the hydrolastic pressures barely register!
If sleeved and properly soldered joints were good enough for high pressure tank fire suppression systems (a tank turret in a burning tank is not a healthy place to be) then it's good enough for your mini hydro system, believe me.
If it were my, admittedly old fashioned 60's/70's era tech experience, I wouldn't rely on a chemical adhesive bond. It's be good sleeved solder or properly worked compression fittings. That's not to disagree with the others who chemical fixes, use it and swear by it, it's just a personal opinion.
I'm sure that we all take your point on board Mucks but bear in mind that we're all using the same pipes now. This same point has been raised in the past and we've all (?) overcome the hydro-pipe problems one way or another
111Robin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:03 am
Are you trying to fit the pipe with the subframes in place ?. I don't know how you can do this with a pre shaped pipe. I'm just curious to see how you are determining that the fit isn't correct if the subframes are on the car.
I have the subframes out of the car, I'll post up some pics tomorrow as need to reduce file size first but the NS pipe is pointing approx 3 inches away from the bulkhead union and the same pipe at the rear is an inch or so away from the locating tab in the centre of the boot floor when secured in the floor pan tabs - I haven't attempted to check the alignment with the union on the rear subframe yet. I know some mild tweaks would be needed but these seem to be beyond a flex here and there and I don't wish to damage the pipes beyond being refundable.
111Robin wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:03 am
Are you trying to fit the pipe with the subframes in place ?. I don't know how you can do this with a pre shaped pipe. I'm just curious to see how you are determining that the fit isn't correct if the subframes are on the car.
I have the subframes out of the car, I'll post up some pics tomorrow as need to reduce file size first but the NS pipe is pointing approx 3 inches away from the bulkhead union and the same pipe at the rear is an inch or so away from the locating tab in the centre of the boot floor when secured in the floor pan tabs - I haven't attempted to check the alignment with the union on the rear subframe yet. I know some mild tweaks would be needed but these seem to be beyond a flex here and there and I don't wish to damage the pipes beyond being refundable.
Classic1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:31 pm
Can anyone tell me why they are such a poor fit surely you would have template I e original to copy
I suspect it's due to several factors; copying from an old pipe wouldn't be easy in itself - the original steel pipes would have been produced using machine methods that ensured far more accuracy and consistency across the 1000's of units needed back then, than can be achieved with the replicas available now.
These have marker pen lines drawn at each bend so appear to be hand shaped - once a method of creating a replica has been found standards can easily slip with these things especially as profit tends to be the focus of too many of these companies, quality much less so sadly.
I have a funny feeling in my bones that these pipes and zillions of brake pipes, were rolled by a firm in Southampton......, something to do with the aircraft industry ticks a box in my brains.
Just making the hard-wood former to accurately bend hydro pipes must be a bloody nightmare. I admit to having to bend my unipart o/e pipes to fit after I'd restored my body. I recall that if the nuts didn't align exactly with the bulkhead adaptors or the rear adaptors....... just so frustrating.
Are the Minispares pipes the same or better pre-shaped?
I don't remember a problem fitting the Minispares pipes to an early 1275GT restoration a few years ago.
Then of course if all else fails and originalty is not a problem. HYDROLASTIC EASY BEND 2 PIECE PIPE - FSP4
Made from easy bend metal but in two sections to make easier fitment:- http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... /FSP4.aspx
Not sure if this helps but I've just been through this nightmare! - I had one new set of pipes from Mini Spares, I acquired a new cupro nickel set with some old displacers (bought as a package). I also had the original metal pipes that came over from New Zealand on the car and a further set from a LHD car of the same year (1965). So a reasonable choice.
The sub frames were off the car - I intended to use the new set from Mini Spares and after 2 hours of 1st fitting I just couldn't get them to fit satisfactorily, I didn't want to close the tabs at this stage so opted to stick them to the body with tape so I could start making some adjustments. A further couple of hours passed and this has to be one of the most fiddly jobs to undertake, fit adjust, fit again adjust etc etc. Still unsatisfactory.
I then decided to attempt to adjust the new set against the old set, by taping them together and adjusting on the bench another hour or two passed, but of course it's then easy to lose a bend position as you can't mirror exactly with inside/outside dimensions at play.
In the end I was becoming tired and frustrated and decided to trial fit the original dirty and surface rusted items - hey bingo - whether I actually used the correct tabs at the front end is questionable (as other images I found on the forum seem to differ) however I reasoned that the original pipes were already a template and I would go with that.
In the end I cut off the flared ends to release the four fixings, had these blasted and replated. Rubbed down the metal pipes and repainted these by hand using POR 15 silver and refitted the fixings before re - flaring the ends. certainly one loses something of the length but I figured there was enough material available along the length to reclaim a sufficient amount and this has proven to be the case.
This has to be one of the most difficult jobs to get right and I include forming brake pipes within this description....
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mab01uk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 1:14 pm
Are the Minispares pipes the same or better pre-shaped?
I don't remember a problem fitting the Minispares pipes to an early 1275GT restoration a few years ago.
Then of course if all else fails and originalty is not a problem. HYDROLASTIC EASY BEND 2 PIECE PIPE - FSP4
Made from easy bend metal but in two sections to make easier fitment:- http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... /FSP4.aspx
These may or may not be the specific one's I'm attempting to fit..... :-/
originalty is not a problem. ...... unfortunately I'm one of those guys where originality is definitely a problem for me.... it's one of many, many problems I have
richardACS wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 2:26 pm
Not sure if this helps but I've just been through this nightmare! - I had one new set of pipes from Mini Spares, I acquired a new cupro nickel set with some old displacers (bought as a package). I also had the original metal pipes that came over from New Zealand on the car and a further set from a LHD car of the same year (1965). So a reasonable choice.
The sub frames were off the car - I intended to use the new set from Mini Spares and after 2 hours of 1st fitting I just couldn't get them to fit satisfactorily, I didn't want to close the tabs at this stage so opted to stick them to the body with tape so I could start making some adjustments. A further couple of hours passed and this has to be one of the most fiddly jobs to undertake, fit adjust, fit again adjust etc etc. Still unsatisfactory.
I then decided to attempt to adjust the new set against the old set, by taping them together and adjusting on the bench another hour or two passed, but of course it's then easy to lose a bend position as you can't mirror exactly with inside/outside dimensions at play.
In the end I was becoming tired and frustrated and decided to trial fit the original dirty and surface rusted items - hey bingo - whether I actually used the correct tabs at the front end is questionable (as other images I found on the forum seem to differ) however I reasoned that the original pipes were already a template and I would go with that.
In the end I cut off the flared ends to release the four fixings, had these blasted and replated. Rubbed down the metal pipes and repainted these by hand using POR 15 silver and refitted the fixings before re - flaring the ends. certainly one loses something of the length but I figured there was enough material available along the length to reclaim a sufficient amount and this has proven to be the case.
This has to be one of the most difficult jobs to get right and I include forming brake pipes within this description....
Sounds very much like we have been in a similar position... I don't want to do more than a subtle tweak here and there on the new pipes as they weren't cheap and are very likely to be returned for a refund.
I've attached a few pictures to show the extent of misalignment of the NS pipe....
The old ones are generally pretty good and after a flush through would go straight back on but! They have fairly significant pitting towards the rear section which I don't want turning into a weep or burst at some point.
I kindly have a forum member to discuss some options with tomorrow so perhaps we have a route through this which will allow the old pipes to live again
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Classic1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:31 pm
Can anyone tell me why they are such a poor fit surely you would have template I e original to copy
I've pondered this myself, is it because the relatively small numbers in use the investment involved in creating a pattern is just too great - there are so many twists, turns and changes in direction. I have been lent a very good pipe bender but this requires an accurate start and finish point. Personally I've found it much easier to work it by hand by making fractional changes along the length just using my fingers.
I guess if one applied some thought to this issue it could be improved and starting with a straight pipe would help in this endeavour!
richardACS wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 2:26 pm
Not sure if this helps but I've just been through this nightmare! - I had one new set of pipes from Mini Spares, I acquired a new cupro nickel set with some old displacers (bought as a package). I also had the original metal pipes that came over from New Zealand on the car and a further set from a LHD car of the same year (1965). So a reasonable choice.
The sub frames were off the car - I intended to use the new set from Mini Spares and after 2 hours of 1st fitting I just couldn't get them to fit satisfactorily, I didn't want to close the tabs at this stage so opted to stick them to the body with tape so I could start making some adjustments. A further couple of hours passed and this has to be one of the most fiddly jobs to undertake, fit adjust, fit again adjust etc etc. Still unsatisfactory.
I then decided to attempt to adjust the new set against the old set, by taping them together and adjusting on the bench another hour or two passed, but of course it's then easy to lose a bend position as you can't mirror exactly with inside/outside dimensions at play.
In the end I was becoming tired and frustrated and decided to trial fit the original dirty and surface rusted items - hey bingo - whether I actually used the correct tabs at the front end is questionable (as other images I found on the forum seem to differ) however I reasoned that the original pipes were already a template and I would go with that.
In the end I cut off the flared ends to release the four fixings, had these blasted and replated. Rubbed down the metal pipes and repainted these by hand using POR 15 silver and refitted the fixings before re - flaring the ends. certainly one loses something of the length but I figured there was enough material available along the length to reclaim a sufficient amount and this has proven to be the case.
This has to be one of the most difficult jobs to get right and I include forming brake pipes within this description....
Sounds very much like we have been in a similar position... I don't want to do more than a subtle tweak here and there on the new pipes as they weren't cheap and are very likely to be returned for a refund.
I've attached a few pictures to show the extent of misalignment of the NS pipe....
The old ones are generally pretty good and after a flush through would go straight back on but! They have fairly significant pitting towards the rear section which I don't want turning into a weep or burst at some point.
I kindly have a forum member to discuss some options with tomorrow so perhaps we have a route through this which will allow the old pipes to live again
Looks like you are onto a tweed car as well! The rubber pipe protectors on my old pipes were not in the position of the clips (and looked to be original) I figured that the clips are tight on the pipes and the rubber protectors are positioned between the clips to stop them vibrating against the floor.. What have others deduced?
