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Just a quick sound-out about Historic racing and where it’s going. Do we think the big budget racing with £25k needed just for an App K engine or around £50k needed to build or buy a pre ‘66 racing Mini has a future? There doesn’t seem a shortage of cars that’s for sure! Big budget racers (or self builders) will always usually find a way with Masters etc, HSCC seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place being largely shunned by FIA racers but losing out to the grass roots lads and lasses racing with the CTCRC , Swinging 60s etc. I love the way Tim Dodwell (pictured) still drives his original hydro S to CTCRC races! Im hoping to be dipping my toe in next year fingers crossed, just a small matter of a car to build!

Great question Pete & I suspect that the answer isn't a simple one.

As I see it, historic racing originally came about for a couple of reasons;

Top level motorsport was becoming too expensive for the privateer, so historics was a "budget" alternative.

People wanted to race old cars as they didn't feel an affinity with modern cars or racing.

Initially AppK was seen as a way of keeping costs down, now that is CERTAINLY NOT the case. As cars builders have become more & more devious & able to squeeze more & more performance out (more or less) within the rules. I think it is likely that AppK will remain the "premier" Historic racing for Mini's for a while yet, but there are less expensive series out there that do attract decent grids. You name a couple.

Personally, I reckon there is a good future for historic racing, look how popular VSCC Pre War racing still is! What series or championship is popular will likely change year by year depending on what is offered by the organisers. The VSCC spend a heck of a lot of time & effort encouraging young drivers to join their races, & they are planning on running post war races & classes next year. An organiser needs to arrange something similar for 60's racers.

Personally I think there is a great opening for a free-er formula competition, something along the lines of "Super Mighty Minis" but for "Pre some date TBA" cars.

Many classes of motorsport including those for Minis start out as a "budget" alternative but slowly become more expensive as Mark says competitors always become more devious & usually expensive find ways to squeeze more performance out within the rules, or sometimes outside them! In practice it is very hard to hold a class or formula down to a budget for long, inevitably those with big budgets soon see an easy way of winning and collecting trophies by moving to what was intended to be a budget/beginners formula. The problem then begins if/when the big budget racers/sponsors start to lose interest or drop out and the grids are no longer large enough to provide exciting racing to attract spectators or event organisers.
With regard to Mini Se7en they have probably been the best in the world of Mini racing at keeping a lid on costs over the years but even the M7 Club has had to bring in more restricted classes within the M7 races to encourage smaller budget competitors to race. Mini Miglia is of course where the bigger budget competitors usually move up to as my brother eventually did.
If you want to circuit race a Mini on a tight budget surely it makes sense to just build or buy a Mini Se7en in their 'budget' class rather than needing to compete with a Mk1 Cooper S replica with a rare or expensive Mk1 shell providing you are ok with 'one make' races.....ok if you want to race with non-Mini historic saloon cars then you have no choice but a 1960's historic Mini of some kind....I think Historic Saloon racing originally had cut off dates or rules which deliberately excluded the Mini as organisers felt there were already enough races for Minis and they did not want Minis winning too many of their "classic car" races!

HSCC do seam to concentrate more on single seater and sports car classes, only having the one touring car class. I guess the clue is in the name. They used to attract large entries for their touring cars but for what ever reason, they have lost a lot of entries.

The other thing with pre-66 is that if you want to be competitive there is now a choice of just 3 cars, Mini, Lotus Cortina or Mustang. The variety of cars has dwindled in the last 5 years or so because those 3 have become highly developed and very expensive. For Minis you need to go to Nick Swift and for Cortinas the Jordans are probably a good bet.

I like what CTCRC are doing with having various classes of touring cars, even going into the 1990s. They do have to mix the grids, but if you are into tin tops I think that is the club that will see growth. They get some variety and people are still using what could be considered cheap cars to race. I like their pre 83 class as it is similar to the Goodwood Gerry Marshall event, with Capris, Mk1 Golfs, Mk2 Escorts and so on.

CTCRC Classes We must not forget the efforts of Julius Thurgood and his HDRC. He has tried various classes, but some have fallen by the wayside, such as the Academy and A-Series challenge. Next year they have the Jack Sears, for 58-66 cars, an Alfa Championship and the All-Stars which mixes Sports and Touring Cars up to 1966.

HRDC 2022 Calendar
I think the historic race scene is still healthy, you just need to choose who basket you jump into.

In answer to your question, yes. There’s just a lot more money around nowadays. Build the car you want and have fun there’s no point in doing it otherwise.

I do say I miss the days of the builder/owner/driver/mechanic but I think there less and less people who want to do that. My Mini I’ve rebuilt twice in 25 years, and I’ve just about finished building a Corvette, everything apart from the rollcage and balancing/machining I’ve done myself don’t think Id want to do it again.

Yeah, I agree Stu but maybe there’s too many race series chasing too few drivers, CTCRC also allow road tyres and wheel arches to a degree. The other hidden cost is that of repairing accident damaged shells, there’s a constant stream of them going through some body shops and you can’t really say that about Vintage racing. A mate of mine has just started racing Mark’s old 500 and he loves it, especially the camaraderie in the club. Historic tin tops seems to lack abit of that the n certain areas. Another mate raced with HSCC this year and says it’s only luck (and good judgement!) that stopped him getting swiped by the wagging tails of a couple of Cortinas. Simon Goodliff did really well not to suffer the same last year at Oulton, having to take to the grass twice to avoid contact in my old Hornet. So there’s that!
I’ve seen a few lads go the sprint / Hillclimb route to avoid the costs but I want to do abit of both just like they did in period.

Tim you epitomise what the club racer used to be all about, still is to a lesser degree, ditto Timo Harber, John Marsden, Colin etc who do very well with your own self built cars and the means at your disposal and more importantly enjoy it!

A very interesting topic. I first marshalled at a race meeting at Goodwood in 1966, soon after I passed my driving test. The very first Goodwood Revival meeting was an EXCELLENT event with continuous action throughout the day and many not quite finished cars in the Paddock. The racing was fantastic with many of my teenage idols taking part. Sadly, nowadays it is all about MONEY. My next door neighbour is looking forward to attending the "Members meeting" to hear the BUZZ of the Mini engines arriving "5 a breast" into St Mary's. My last event at the Revival was when they had the first Radford showroom. I have not been since and feel the same way about the Silverstone Classic event.
Money and sponsorship in grass roots motorsport has been spoiling it for "poor enthusiasts" since the 2nd half of the 1960s - IMO.
Drive and arrive, compete and drive home. What a great idea!

Dog boxes, special cast heads, electric waterpumps, 6mm stem valves, hi-los, 6.25 rods.
The rules have been made up by certain people and have nothing to do with Pre 66, Appendix K......
Build a car with only parts available Pre 66 and see how you get on.

OzOAP wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:48 pm Dog boxes, special cast heads, electric waterpumps, 6mm stem valves, hi-los, 6.25 rods.
The rules have been made up by certain people and have nothing to do with Pre 66, Appendix K......
Build a car with only parts available Pre 66 and see how you get on.

The FIA did try that in the 90s but S blocks, 163 heads and 333 boxes?? That was never going to last and even the boxes were being altered to look like 333s in the end. You can’t expect engineers to stand still but yeah maybe things have gone too far in trying to produce reliable engines with 130bhp+ that don’t break. The shockers they could have done something about, how much are the latest spec? Two and a half grand a set?

OzOAP wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:48 pm Dog boxes, special cast heads, electric waterpumps, 6mm stem valves, hi-los, 6.25 rods.
The rules have been made up by certain people and have nothing to do with Pre 66, Appendix K......
Build a car with only parts available Pre 66 and see how you get on.

How is it explained away (or got a way with) under App K ?

Internal engine parts could be more difficult to spot but electric water pumps, Dog boxes and 6mm valves are all easy to spot - why is no one getting pulled on them ?

A few random thoughts ;

I started with HSCC because it had the right structure and full grids. I can only think that a lot of the "club" racers have been slightly put off with the odd "pro" entries that have appeared. Grids are tiny now , but then they are in CTCRC. Not sure why but partly it is due (in my opinion) that they let the HRSR run it who don't have the clout or enthusiasm that comes with under the HSCC umbrella. I tried to get it amalgamated with the HSCC several times but a couple of diehards baulked at it.

I have done Julius Thurgood's races but the structure is not my idea of balance; One half hour race and and a quick practice for £700 odd , which is neither endurance or sprint. Posh none the less

CTCRC have a lovely atmosphere and right structure for me ; £300-400 for two sprints and a practice. I've only raced with them once t know others who do and they certainly have more the club atmosphere , but again they are bewildered when a "pro" FIA Mini turns up and is 5 seconds a lap quicker than any of the normal crowd. They do let you run cheaper tyres and some mongrels appear which is encouraging

None of the clubs apply the rules enthusiastically as they are glad to have entries and want to keep it happy , and only once in 10 years have I seen any bitching at tracks

I'd like to think I could get out next year but my inclination is towards CTCRC

Still , I did get out once this year in the (waits for groan from Rich) 24 hour race with the 2CV's. Absolute gas. Lovely atmosphere that is like Mighty Minis was when I started which was better than anything since . Its about the same price as one Masters race but you get over 6 hours playing sillybuggers and a 36 hour party. The 2Cv lot are all lovely amateur peasants . I think the youngest of their support vehicles at the back of the pits was about 10 years old

I don't see any obvious answer to the small grids. The sports cars with HSCC seem to do alright and one of them runs standard spec cars and gives extra points if you drive your car to the track

Hey ho

Thanks for posting this insight Tim, its really interesting. Have been thinking about dipping my toe in for a while, but been put off, partly by some of the regs…maybe others have to ?

To know that “ None of the clubs apply the rules enthusiastically as they are glad to have entries and want to keep it happy” is useful, not that want to break the regs……but to know that you wont be excluded for minor things.

Also explains why no one gets excluded for 6mm valve stems and dog boxes….

The only rules that you will find applied strictly at most meeting are the safety ones. Eligibility is usually handled very differently at most meetings. It is usually only an issue if you are vastly faster than everyone else.

So really, no one cares unless you start winning.....

Tim Harber wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:56 pm I have done Julius Thurgood's races but the structure is not my idea of balance; One half hour race and and a quick practice for £700 odd , which is neither endurance or sprint. Posh none the less

CTCRC have a lovely atmosphere and right structure for me ; £300-400 for two sprints and a practice.

Another downside to HRDC races is they tend to piggyback modern race events mostly so the paddock doesn’t have that atmosphere that an HSCC historic race meeting does. A lot of the appeal is down to the craic you have with mates I think, you could see that when Andy Jones seemed to inspire a good number of drivers to start racing their Imps, which seems to have gone off the boil now. Theres a few very quick Anglias out there now though.

So many seem to have gone down the hillclimb / sprint route instead which I can see the appeal of, in terms of cost etc we got about 70 entries for the Mini Fest at Prescott, and that was during the lockdown so I reckon that was a very good turn out!

It was an excellent turnout!

Personally, although I tried racing a few years ago, I do prefer the atmosphere, & lack of expense of Hillclimb's & Sprints. That & I discovered that I just wasn't a racer. In a 50/50 situation I'd always back down. Not a desirable trait when you are supposedly trying to go as fast as you can

Oh & I got sick of spending every hour of the day & night fixing / improving the car.

I know what you mean about atmosphere Pete; I certainly miss doing the Gold Cup as it clashes with the 24 hour race

I think its easy to worry about eligibility and competitiveness before you have actually dipped your toe in. I am regularly trying to encourage folk with suitable cars who worry that their motor is oversize / they haven't got rose petals fitted / a weld in cage or something. The big issue is the cost of even a basic spec one now

No-one I know has ever been that upset when another goes off in the distance . Its most unlikely that even with a 1430 and a Weber , you're most likely to end up mid pack and having a good time because there are more things in life than having a quick car - well that's if you're over 40 , which I suspect most of us are

Totally agree Tim, plenty of slow drivers with mega quick cars and equally as many quick drivers with slower cars, it’s all about getting a car on the grid to start with and enjoy it! Easy to over think it and get carried away, we’ll leave that to the front runners but having said that Tim you’ve been at the front plenty of times! It was also really impressive to see Phil House up at the sharp end with the best FIA cars/drivers at Silverstone last year with Mark’s old ‘60 still with its old bolt in cage, relatively old school engine etc.(albeit a wet race where his car really came into its own).

Pete wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:42 am

a good number of drivers to start racing their Imps, which seems to have gone off the boil now.
[/quote]

In MY experience Pete, the opposite was true and most Imps were usually ON the boil