mk1-forum.net

Thought I'd get my oar in now before messer Harrison does so!! Andy - we said this would create a great discussion.

After a bit of a conversation at Oulton yesterday around weather, tyre pressures, squeeling and choice. I came to the conclusion that racing drivers are not as good as rally drivers.

I voiced this opinion whilst surrounded by around 7 or 8 of them and 1 chap who did a bit of both. As you can imagine my opinion was not met with great reception but I stuck to my guns.

This came about from the staff at Oulton wetting the rally track to keep the squeeling noise off the tyres down. On the tyres I had (32R's) it basically rendered them completely useless until the already slippy surface dried out. Mr Harrisons (the racer) response was that if the tyres were squeeling, I was doing it wrong. My retort..Andy if yours are not squeeling, your obviously not trying hard enough!.

It was then I had a thought which I again, verbalised. Surely, after the first lap, you have all the corners dialed in and it just a matter a replicating the same for the remaining laps, backing off a little for the wet? Aparently not. I went on to explain further that in rallying, not only do you need to cope witha change in conditions, you dont often do all the same corners again (appart from stages like Oulton) and therefore a rally driver has to adapt better, quicker and concluded this showed more skill.

So discuss.....

Oh, this not a presonal dig at anyone. I actually think that ALL Racers are foppy haired cad's who are constant state of denial about there own ability.

Top removed from a can of wiggly things i think Dave

mk1rally wrote: I went on to explain further that in rallying, not only do you need to cope witha change in conditions, you dont often do all the same corners again (appart from stages like Oulton) and therefore a rally driver has to adapt better, quicker and concluded this showed more skill.

Yes Dave only rally drivers don't have to do it attached to someone elses rear bumper with another car alongside through a corner with two feet on the grass ! And the circuit racer's not got a navigator alongside (the real star of the show) telling him what to do ! (well obviously not in my case, I'd be throwing up ! )

I think it's all swings and roundabouts really. There are great drivers who can jump in any car and any conditions and excel. Then there is most off the rest who will have abilities in certain areas which may make for a better rally driver or a better circuit driver. I agree that rally driving may offer conditions which require a certain level of skill, adaptability and sharp senses that may not be present on a circuit but as mentioned before circuit racing has its demands also, such as heading into a corner bumper to bumper boxed in by somebody else and also the level of immediate competition (who's going to brake first), not to mention that circuit racing tends to last a little longer than a rally stage so their is the added skill of endurance. All that said I think rally driving is a little scarier than on the track, but perhaps that is only because of the lack of run off. If you make a mistake in a rally car you might end up on your roof in an tree. On the track your most likely to be sitting in a gravel trap. Perhaps rally drivers just have bigger balls.

SMOKE GREY wrote:Top removed from a can of wiggly things i think Dave

Absolutely!! bout time the truth was heard.

Pete, those extra cars around them only serve to provide excuses about their performance..." oh, I was doing ok until he cut me up" or "he forced me into the gravel"

Good discussion this, and it has to be said not a new one

My contribution would be this;

back in "the good old days of the 60's" when "racing" drivers of all sorts drove many different disciplines not just their chosen one. It was comparatively common to get racing drivers driving in rallies & rally drivers driving in circuit races. During this period racing drivers driving in rallies were moderately successful, I can think of both Graham Hill & Jim Clark getting class wins in rallies, but can't think of many examples of this happening the other way round. I can also remember when Colin McCrea tried his hand at racing without any great degree of success.

HOWEVER!

In my opinion it takes far greater car control & finesse to drive a car fast on the rough than it does to drive a race car fast on Tarmac. Remember those Group B cars that had the power of a contemporary F1 car but were driven through forests!

So as far as I am concerned it's simply a case of horses for courses. many truly good drivers could do very well in either disclipline how well they do in which is simply a case of what sport they "prefer".

I look forward to hearing other peoples views.

mk1 wrote:back in "the good old days of the 60's" when "racing" drivers of all sorts drove many different disciplines not just their chosen one. It was comparatively common to get racing drivers driving in rallies & rally drivers driving in circuit races. During this period racing drivers driving in rallies were moderately successful, I can think of both Graham Hill & Jim Clark getting class wins in rallies, but can't think of many examples of this happening the other way round. I can also remember when Colin McCrea tried his hand at racing without any great degree of success.

I think that McRae was actually pretty handy in lap times in the F1 car when he tested it.

Another driver of note is Mr Loeb, fast in a Formula 1 car and fast in a Le Mans car - 2nd at Le Mans a few years back. That guy has it all though, he is just a genius.

mk1 wrote:Good discussion this, and it has to be said not a new one
I can think of both Graham Hill & Jim Clark getting class wins in rallies, but can't think of many examples of this happening the other way round.

Paddy and Rauno were no slouches on the track not to mention Geoff Mabbs !

As for Henry's larger plums comment, it takes a big set of clackers to pull off this manouvre by grumpy Mark Webber in last Sundays Grand Prix going through Eau Rouge....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgMdYzeIEl4

I agree about racers having it easy (He says winding up various sw based mini racers who frequent here!)

... and while we're about it what about the hillclimb and sprint fraternity?
They have to get their time in one lap/climb no room for mistakes, no 9 laps of practice

(of course I only mention the hillclimb and sprint as this is what I do! )

(of course I only mention the hillclimb and sprint as this is what I do! )

It's the only motor sport discipline I was ever any good at, & compared to both racing & rallying (both of which I have dabbled in also) is in my totally worthless opinion a piece of piss.

It's the only motor sport discipline I was ever any good at, & compared to both racing & rallying (both of which I have dabbled in also) is in my totally worthless opinion a piece of piss.

Fair enough, I'll get back in my box

Mark Webber was awesome with that overtake on Sunday, he has got to have the biggest balls in F1

All valid comments chaps (well the pro rallying ones anyway). I actually think sprinting and hillclimbs come under the rallying umbrella as that have to drive it as they see it, albeit a short distance. Non of this "oh I'll have another 20 goes to
get it right". Roger clark won the tour of Britannia or something, another fine rally driver sticking it to the fops.

Can't help noticing the regular forum racers are keeping quiet?? Have I said something too upset them or are they doing their hair and booking their spray on tans tonight?

Who remembers the 1974 Avon Tour of Britain (circuits and rally stages) when Roger Clark and Gerry Marshall in identical Gp 1 RS 2000s were trading places throughout the whole event which Roger won with Gerry second. Says it all really as Roger of course was also quite a successful racer in his early days. He was spectacular at Mallory Park in the late '60s in the Outspan Orange Mexico. I know I was there!

Both racing and rallying have different skills. Rallying it's all about driving a car the wrong way, and it's a skill that needs lots of practice, if you've spent your life on tarmac, then it will take time to learn.

The skill in circuit racing is, in fact, overtaking and defending (or racecraft), one lap speed will get you somewhere but it's not the only important factor.

I suspect a rally driver would not make a good circuit racer for one very important reason. They'd get bored of going round the same corners on the third lap and fall asleep!

"I suspect a rally driver would not make a good circuit racer for one very important reason. They'd get bored of going round the same corners on the third lap and fall asleep!"[/quote]

Just looked at the new Gerry Marshall biography in a book shop today, it quotes Roger Clark as saying "racing is dead boring"

Ah, the lesser speedy rally drivers view of the world. If I'm not squealing the tyres, sawing away at the wheel, trying to pull the gear lever out its socket and stamping on the pedals, then I can't be going fast.

Driving quick in the wet is just a matter of slowing down less than everyone else from the dry? Somehow I don't think so. Maybe that is why you have no grip from your 032s, a tyre which everyone else seems to rave about in the wet.

Remember that going quick in a racing car is just to get you in the race, then you have to outrace the opposition.

ivor badger wrote:Ah, the lesser speedy rally drivers view of the world. If I'm not squealing the tyres, sawing away at the wheel, trying to pull the gear lever out its socket and stamping on the pedals, then I can't be going fast.

Driving quick in the wet is just a matter of slowing down less than everyone else from the dry? Somehow I don't think so. Maybe that is why you have no grip from your 032s, a tyre which everyone else seems to rave about in the wet.

Remember that going quick in a racing car is just to get you in the race, then you have to outrace the opposition.

nail.

head.

ivor badger wrote: Maybe that is why you have no grip from your 032s

To be fair to Dave he was driving on the Oulton drift course, I think the tarmac's got silicone in it or something, he was like a spaniel on wet lino ! He is actually a very good driver , how many times did you stall the car on the Borders rally Dave ?

I think Senna summed it up in an old magazine article when he went out in 3 different rally cars.

Rallying was definatly harder than racing - '

'who are we lesser mortals to argue'