mk1-forum.net

Hi,
I’m currently in the process of building a FIA APP K 1293 race mini and have a few questions. I plan to race the car in the UK and Europe and would like to gauge the forums views to balanced specification for the car. My fear is that I build the car to the FIA rule book and find the car off the pace. Having looked around the pits the cars seem to differ massively in spec.

Subframe,
What other modifications other than seam welding are allowed? From my understanding you can only seam weld is this the case?

Fuel Tank,
What is the max size of fuel tank you are allowed to run?
Do most people retain the original tanks or replace with a large single tank?
Should you need to could you run a fuel swirl pot to increase fuel volume?

Suspension
To completely comply with FIA I understand you need to retain all suspension in original form and adjust with spacer’s e.t.c. Having looked around the pits most people seem to run adjustable. Is this acceptable or is it something I may get pulled up on if I do rounds in Europe?

Shocks seem to free looking around the pits, most run adjustable. Again is this something that will be enforced in Europe.

Rose joints are banned other than the anti roll bar links is this correct?

Thanks in advance
Dave

I am no Appendix K expert, but I'll have a go at some of your questions.

Subframe,
What other modifications other than seam welding are allowed? From my understanding you can only seam weld is this the case?

That is the case, but it is possible to "accidentally" bend the subframe to improve / effect steering geometry. This is of course NOT a modification, but an accidental consequence of using old parts

Fuel Tank,
What is the max size of fuel tank you are allowed to run?
Do most people retain the original tanks or replace with a large single tank?
Should you need to could you run a fuel swirl pot to increase fuel volume?

Most of the UK built true Appendix K cars retain the standard tank / tanks.

Suspension
To completely comply with FIA I understand you need to retain all suspension in original form and adjust with spacer’s e.t.c. Having looked around the pits most people seem to run adjustable. Is this acceptable or is it something I may get pulled up on if I do rounds in Europe?

In most Appendix K series you will be excluded if you use adjustable.

Shocks seem to free looking around the pits, most run adjustable. Again is this something that will be enforced in Europe.

Shocks are free, aren't they?

Rose joints are banned other than the anti roll bar links is this correct?

Correct.

Thanks in advance
Dave

Thanks for the reply Mark,

I was (maybe wrongly) under the impression that shocks weren’t allowed to be adjustable. Are you allowed adjustable shocks? Do the shocks have to be steel bodied?

With regards to the adjustable suspension if you weld them is this acceptable?

Thanks

Dave

As far as I know, seam welding the subframes is illegal.

Edgey21 wrote: Hi,

Subframe,
What other modifications other than seam welding are allowed? From my understanding you can only seam weld is this the case?

Fuel Tank,
What is the max size of fuel tank you are allowed to run? Do most people retain the original tanks or replace with a large single tank?
Should you need to could you run a fuel swirl pot to increase fuel volume?

Suspension
To completely comply with FIA I understand you need to retain all suspension in original form and adjust with spacer’s e.t.c. Having looked around the pits most people seem to run adjustable. Is this acceptable or is it something I may get pulled up on if I do rounds in Europe? Shocks seem to free looking around the pits, most run adjustable. Again is this something that will be enforced in Europe. Rose joints are banned other than the anti roll bar links is this correct?

Thanks in advance
Dave

Hi Dave

My interpretation is the sub-frame could be welded as Appendix K states "The chassis must follow the original design and dimensions but may employ local stiffening."

My interpretation is the fuel tank can be changed as Appendix K states "Any fuel tank must comply with Art. 5.5, must not exceed the originally specified capacity, and must be in the original location or in the rear of the car. For all cars of Period F ( Which includes the Cooper S) the fuel tank is free but must be filled with safety foam in conformity with American Military Specification MIL-B-83054 or “D-Stop” anti-explosion foil. The original capacity is 50 litres, with twin tanks, therefore you can have a tank up to that size. Our tank is a 50 litre centrally mounted purpose made alloy foam filled with filler cap inside the boot, the justification for this is that its safer (also easier for access to rear shockers and better for centre of gravity?). Many other Appendix K cars have this arrangement. If you want to do the longer races, Spa for instance, I suggest you will need a tank this size.

Suspension must be set up by using spacers or by machining down the trumpets. We have KAD camber brackets that have been fixed in one position after adjustment, not sure if this is legal but they are much stronger than the standard type. We carry a pair of std type just in case we are pulled on this. Adjustable shock absorbers of the same type as the period specification ones are permitted, but should not I suggest have rose jointed mounts as these are not period. Suggest you look at the special Koni type as per Swiftune, which appear to be current state of the art?

Fitting an anti-roll bar is authorised, on condition that it does not constitute an additional wheel location device. The anti-roll bar must not be adjustable and must be of one-piece construction from a solid bar. Rose joints may be used if this does not affect the geometry of the suspension. Most anti roll bars I have seen, like ours, are of the KAD type so would appear not to comply with this rule.

Are you hoping to be on track in 2011

regards

Eddie

@ mark: could you please explain how and where to bend the subframe to change the steering geometry. what is the benefit out of that in terms of handling?

Edgey21 wrote:Hi,
I’m currently in the process of building a FIA APP K 1293 race mini and have a few questions.

Hi Dave,

You did not state what type of 1275 Mini/Cooper S you wanted to build, but I assume you mean a pre -66 Cooper S according to FIA paper no. 1300?

Hi,

Ed, Yes its a 1275cc 1965 Cooper s.

Eddie, Yes hopefully out in 2011, subject to car being finished. With regards to the anti roll bar could you mount it in the boot? I run this setup on my Miglia and it works very well. Is the KAD bar the typical bar used by most?

Thanks

Dave

There's a chap writing in this months Mini Cooper Register magazine who has started an Appendix K register as part of the MCR. Might be worth joining or contacting him via the MCR website.

steve1071 wrote:There's a chap writing in this months Mini Cooper Register magazine who has started an Appendix K register as part of the MCR. Might be worth joining or contacting him via the MCR website.

I know the fella, they call him 'Steady Eddie' round these parts ^ ^ ^

Edgey21 wrote:Hi,


Eddie, Yes hopefully out in 2011, subject to car being finished. With regards to the anti roll bar could you mount it in the boot? I run this setup on my Miglia and it works very well. Is the KAD bar the typical bar used by most?

Thanks

Dave

Why would you want to mount the rear roll bar in the boot?

Eddie

Surf 1275 wrote:I know the fella, they call him 'Steady Eddie' round these parts ^ ^ ^

It's a tangled web!

Hi Eddie,

We run the anti roll bar in the boot to get round the clearance issues with the drop links fowling the tyres and body. The roll bar is easier to adjust in the boot and lease likely to get damaged. I used to run an early KAD type bar on my Mini 7 and suffered with damage to the bar and was a pain to adjust.



Thanks

Dave

Edgey21 wrote:Hi Eddie,

We run the anti roll bar in the boot to get round the clearance issues with the drop links fowling the tyres and body.

Dave

Hi managed to find my way to your image on flicker, for some reason did not appear on Mk1, but in any case could not really see how your roll bar is mounted, do you have some sort of brace between the top of the wheel arches? This seems a clever idea, I assume the link goes down through a hole in the wheel arch to connect to the radius arm? Can't see this in your picture. I can't see why this set up should not be acceptable on an Appendix K car but am not sure, need to ask John Hopwood I suppose for certainty? Can see the problem with the KAD bar, its ok as long as everything stays where it should be but both we and our friend Christian Devereux had the same problem at Donnington this year, the camber brackets distorted and the inside of the tyre wore itself out on the end of the anti roll bar. No margine at all for movement.

Eddie

Here's the snag. Did any Minis have boot mounted ARBs in 1965? The answer is no, hence you cannot do it today either. All other Mini in this period has got a traditionally mounted item, and that works. You're not allowed adjustable camber brackets either, so this will not pose a problem.

Hi Eddie,

I have uploaded a few more pictures to show the mounting of the bar. I have a T45 tube mounted between the rear aches. This T45 tube then has the mounts for the roll bar to mount on. You can see in the picture the cut-outs in the boot floor for the drop links. We can then adjust the roll bar (if it starts rain) in seconds, which we have done many time in the assemble area when it starts to rain.

Hi Vergard,

So if a mod was available in the 60's then it can be used? Having looked around the pits at various meetings in the UK, you would be hard pressed to find a car that complied fully with the regs. The components used in some of the engines are the latest F1 spec materials. Also the double adjustable gas pressurise alloy body Quantum shocks used by some are a few of the items not available in the 60’s. This in short is my problem, having read the regs been around the pits and spoken to various people what is allowed by the regs and what is acceptable is different. For me building a new car it’s a mind field. I don’t want to build a car to the letter of the regs and not be competitive, but I don’t want to build a car and get chucked out for bending the rules.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/56545037@N ... 380299367/

Thanks

Dave

Selby started this in-boot roll bar thing in 1994.

It's OK for Se7ens/Miglias but John Hopwood or Mike Garton will die laughing if you try planting one in an App K

YMJ wrote:Selby started this in-boot roll bar thing in 1994.

It's OK for Se7ens/Miglias but John Hopwood or Mike Garton will die laughing if you try planting one in an App K

You have to ask yourself which competitions you will be entering.......if you are doing Masters' then you must follow "Ron's rules" which are pretty good to be honest, i.e don't take the piss and you'll be OK. If you are thinking of doing U2TC, then you had better make sure your oil cooler is in exactly the right position. HSCC? Well, if you wanted to, you could put the engine in the boot from what I've seen

Hi YMJ,

Thanks for the reply. I plan to mainly race with the Master series and a few odd rounds with the U2TC. From looking at the HSCC I would need a completely different engine and loads of mods to the car to be competitive. I already have 2 engines being built, so its a little late for engine spec changes. What would I need to do / change to get a Masters spec car to race in U2TC? i.e would I need to swap the rear (welded) adjustable camber brackets e.t.c. For U2TC the oil cooler needs to be in a set location? Would you suggest I build a car for say the Master and stick with that series?
Thanks

Dave

Edgey21 wrote:Hi YMJ,

Thanks for the reply. I plan to mainly race with the Master series and a few odd rounds with the U2TC. From looking at the HSCC I would need a completely different engine and loads of mods to the car to be competitive. I already have 2 engines being built, so its a little late for engine spec changes. What would I need to do / change to get a Masters spec car to race in U2TC? i.e would I need to swap the rear (welded) adjustable camber brackets e.t.c. For U2TC the oil cooler needs to be in a set location? Would you suggest I build a car for say the Master and stick with that series?
Thanks

Dave

Hi, most people who race in U2TC also race in Masters' but Ron is more tolerant than most and if you've got a bit on your car which is dodgy, he'll ask the other competitors what they think and ask to you to change it next time if they take a dim view. Your best bet is to look at a car with a recent HTP and copy that, although the HTP is only a snap-shot of the car on the day of inspection - you could put the HiLos back on when the inspector has left the premises but you don't want to go all the way to Monza say, get pinged for having an inelligible car and then get into a language/interpretation problem with the scrutineers which results in a wasted trip (worst case scenario but if a local competitor complains about your car, it could happen).


I'm not actually sure where your oil cooler should go in either category or whether it matters..... but it might!