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Some bloke was quizzing me the other night in the pub about the differences between an AppK 1275 Cooper S and a class D Mini of the same ilk racing in HSCC. I thought I was doing a pretty good job at blagging my way out of a corner, when he said, "Another beer? Oh and by-the-way, you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about, do you?"
He was, I'm afraid, correct. He didn't know either but what he did say was that a class D car sits on the HRSR, whatever that is?? We both agreed that they're historic racing cars but I'm afraid I couldn't tell anyone the technical differences. Anyone else know?

appendix k are 'pure' (lol)

class d can run adjustable stuff etc

rich@minispares.com wrote:appendix k are 'pure' (lol)

class d can run adjustable stuff etc

Let's say rather pure. With a original car from, perhaps 65, you cannot win a todays competition for cars from 65.

Astro wrote:

rich@minispares.com wrote:appendix k are 'pure' (lol)

class d can run adjustable stuff etc

Let's say rather pure. With a original car from, perhaps 65, you cannot win a todays competition for cars from 65.

hence the (lol)

Class D cars have a bit more freedom over spec but still have to run the same tyres /shell so with all the advances in bushes there isn't too much to be gained with adjustable stuff and rose joints and four pot brakes. I figure that if you can lock up the brakes with S calipers , that's good enough. I run (cheapshit) Gaz shocks as they seemed to work ok in Mighty Minis and I suspect I could'nt tell the difference if I had an extra £1000 to spend on Swifty's

Engine spec is a bit freer - as long as it's under 1300 you can get there how you want. Rod change is ok. Electronic ignition ok . Must be 5 port head

My car is in effect Appendix K apart from electronic ignition and hilos and adjustable tie bars that we put on to build it and never took off. The gap between Appendix K and modified has narrowed. The Modified Cortinas that run with Appendix K cars are much of a muchness and one will beat another.

You are allowed to run a car of the type that was made pre 1966 IE If you have an S that wasn't registered till 67 you can still run it as long as it keeps to spec

You have to get a paper done for it giving details and a photo ; £35 . My sort of money!

I swop from the SU's to the Weber on occasion and no-one gives a damn. They are just happy to have you racing, unlike a Mr Todt who announced that the Historic Division of the FIA wasn't making enough money when he joined , hence all your grief

Oh and the weight limits are different - they weigh you and the car - mine is spot on at 720kg if I keep it half full of fuel , but it must be about 20kgs over for App K

HRSR do have a website - bit random when it gets updated. They provide a tea urn and biscuits at each meeting rather that whatever Masters provides , so it's quite tough...

http://www.hrsr.co.uk/

rich@minispares.com wrote:

Astro wrote:

rich@minispares.com wrote:appendix k are 'pure' (lol)

class d can run adjustable stuff etc

Let's say rather pure. With a original car from, perhaps 65, you cannot win a todays competition for cars from 65.

hence the (lol)

We noticed that the head on the Swifty works car was stepped forward on the block on Saturday, plus a few other little things. An App K car running in HSCC (when they did) rarely ever had the legs of a Class D due to the fact that most Class D are de stroked on big pots. Nowadays with the development of cranks, heads , rods not to mention pistons that's not necessarily the case!

Are dog boxes strictly allowed in App K?

Pete wrote:......... Nowadays with Swifty's new cranks and heads that's not the case!

Swifty's new cranks?? I thought they were specifically not for App K use.
I know the heads* have been ratified by the FIA (Swiftune even gets a mention in the regs) but the cranks??
Surely it's going to get to the stage where if you don't use a Swiftune engine, you may as well not bother?

* these also annoy me for the reason they came about was that Swifty claimed that the World was running out of 12G940 heads and so could he manufacture his own? Well, I've got, at the last count, about twenty five 940 heads, so there must be thousands and thousands out there. If you don't believe me, put an eBay search in.

Tim Harber wrote:Class D cars have a bit more freedom over spec but still have to run the same tyres /shell so with all the advances in bushes there isn't too much to be gained with adjustable stuff and rose joints and four pot brakes. I figure that if you can lock up the brakes with S calipers , that's good enough. I run (cheapshit) Gaz shocks as they seemed to work ok in Mighty Minis and I suspect I could'nt tell the difference if I had an extra £1000 to spend on Swifty's

Engine spec is a bit freer - as long as it's under 1300 you can get there how you want. Rod change is ok. Electronic ignition ok . Must be 5 port head

My car is in effect Appendix K apart from electronic ignition and hilos and adjustable tie bars that we put on to build it and never took off. The gap between Appendix K and modified has narrowed. The Modified Cortinas that run with Appendix K cars are much of a muchness and one will beat another.

You are allowed to run a car of the type that was made pre 1966 IE If you have an S that wasn't registered till 67 you can still run it as long as it keeps to spec

You have to get a paper done for it giving details and a photo ; £35 . My sort of money!

I swop from the SU's to the Weber on occasion and no-one gives a damn. They are just happy to have you racing, unlike a Mr Todt who announced that the Historic Division of the FIA wasn't making enough money when he joined , hence all your grief

Oh and the weight limits are different - they weigh you and the car - mine is spot on at 720kg if I keep it half full of fuel , but it must be about 20kgs over for App K

HRSR do have a website - bit random when it gets updated. They provide a tea urn and biscuits at each meeting rather that whatever Masters provides , so it's quite tough...

http://www.hrsr.co.uk/

Thanks for that!

YMJ wrote:

Pete wrote:......... Nowadays with Swifty's new cranks and heads that's not the case!

Swifty's new cranks?? I thought they were specifically not for App K use.
I know the heads* have been ratified by the FIA (Swiftune even gets a mention in the regs) but the cranks??
Surely it's going to get to the stage where if you don't use a Swiftune engine, you may as well not bother?

* these also annoy me for the reason they came about was that Swifty claimed that the World was running out of 12G940 heads and so could he manufacture his own? Well, I've got, at the last count, about twenty five 940 heads, so there must be thousands and thousands out there. If you don't believe me, put an eBay search in.

I assume a later type 12G940 casting can be used and not just a slab head??? If so, there really are thousands and thousands out there!

I've got 3 12g940s inc one bought 2 weeks ago off ebay bare for £6.00 and he
was local and dropped it round.Yes SIX pounds

Mmm I was reading a spec list for an appendix K car and noticed a swift tune head. I was thinking this was probably a place where some of the power is found.

YMJ wrote:
* these also annoy me for the reason they came about was that Swifty claimed that the World was running out of 12G940 heads and so could he manufacture his own? Well, I've got, at the last count, about twenty five 940 heads, so there must be thousands and thousands out there. If you don't believe me, put an eBay search in.

to be fair to nick he has a point

there may be thaaaasssaaannnnds of 12g940 core heads out their, but how many of them are actually any good?

its a massive pain in the arse if you spend hours modding one only to discover that the waterways have rotted out and its gone porus, its even more of a pain if you have actually finished the head and sold it and a problem like this rears its head!

we have seen loads of heads fail like this just in the range we well at work, including the odd 'standard recon' unleaded head.

from this point its easier and cheaper to start with a known, good, new head, and well, if its been 'advantageously cast' all the better.

this is the exact reason that we are looking at new heads and blocks as its always far better to start with something that's not been abused for 20-30 years

As Rich says there are 940 heads & there are 940 heads. Most serious head men will only use specific castings to do their full race heads on & these are inevitably becoming harder & harder to find.

Nick managed to get his new casting approved. This will need a lot less modifying from standard & will give consistant results every time. It must be a good thing in the long run.

OK most mere mortals are never going to be able to afford a Swiftune engine but most people have never been able to afford "THE TRICK ENGINE" of the day whenever that day happens to be.

As Rich says , you can spend an age on an old head. Consistency and reliability is what you are paying for with Swifty and it's well worth it if you can afford. Fit and Forget.

I live in cheapshire and I found that when I put my spare used Vmax head on last year it seems to work better than the offset valve big-ported one from Brett Simms . The head does'nt have such big valves or ports. It cost me £200 .

I use a standard A+ crank and rods

If you look at my footage later this week where it was a straight race with other similar spec Minis, I think you will notice you don't need to spend the money

Understandably there seems to be aspiration towards the best kit , but I have to try and inspire the penniless peasants amongst us

Tim Harber wrote:As Rich says , you can spend an age on an old head. Consistency and reliability is what you are paying for with Swifty and it's well worth it if you can afford. Fit and Forget.

I live in cheapshire and I found that when I put my spare used Vmax head on last year it seems to work better than the offset valve big-ported one from Brett Simms . The head does'nt have such big valves or ports. It cost me £200 .

I use a standard A+ crank and rods

If you look at my footage later this week where it was a straight race with other similar spec Minis, I think you will notice you don't need to spend the money

Understandably there seems to be aspiration towards the best kit , but I have to try and inspire the penniless peasants amongst us

That's remarkable Tim! Gives the rest of us hope

Are the Swifty heads the same in terms of oil gallery and water jacket? I did notice the outer exhaust ports were enlarged right out in a D shape?

Yes Tim is an inspiration to us peasants and has quite an arty collection of crash helmets.
By the way if anyone's looking for an App K racer a pal of mine is selling his.

Yes, I get the continuity of quality aspect of the argument but he won't let you have a raw head that you can cut yourself.....only the entire flowed and built up package (£3500+VAT). I stand to be corrected - in which case he needs a pat on the back for having the balls to go down this line of investment and committment.
Fortunately, I'm pretty good (lucky?) at spotting a porous casting and have never got beyond an half an hour of grinding before realising it's a lost cause.
I think to be honest me (and a few others) racing in AppK is akin to the old days of privateers taking on the F1 works teams in the 60s.....blokes like Bob Anderson and his mates from the Young Farmers Club taking on Lotus, Ferrari, BRM, etc. He was never going to get into the top 5, he could just about afford to stay in the job, but was permanently frustrated that whenever he got a step forward, all the works competition had taken two.....a day earlier.

mk1 wrote: OK most mere mortals are never going to be able to afford a Swiftune engine but most people have never been able to afford "THE TRICK ENGINE" of the day whenever that day happens to be.

Yes, I suppose that's very true

rich@minispares.com wrote:
to be fair to nick he has a point

there may be thaaaasssaaannnnds of 12g940 core heads out their, but how many of them are actually any good?

its a massive pain in the arse if you spend hours modding one only to discover that the waterways have rotted out and its gone porus, its even more of a pain if you have actually finished the head and sold it and a problem like this rears its head!

we have seen loads of heads fail like this just in the range we well at work, including the odd 'standard recon' unleaded head.

from this point its easier and cheaper to start with a known, good, new head, and well, if its been 'advantageously cast' all the better.

this is the exact reason that we are looking at new heads and blocks as its always far better to start with something that's not been abused for 20-30 years

Alright, alright....you win!

YMJ wrote:Yes, I get the continuity of quality aspect of the argument but he won't let you have a raw head that you can cut yourself.....only the entire flowed and built up package (£3500+VAT)..

again, to be fair to nick, we wouldn't sell an unmachined arden casting to a retail customer

its all about controlling the quality of the product and your name.

just think, you sell a cheap unmachined casting, six months later it goes porus / is poorly ported and doesn't make the power and its YOUR name that's mud!


I would say that your lucky more than good on the porus front, our biggest problem is not heads that go porus as they are been ported, but heads that 'rust through' once they have been run for a while and the scale in the water ways shells off

very annoying!