DJB 93 B

[Polarsilver]

Larry.. you now seem to want to discredit this Forum and that is NOT acceptable to me and i suspect many other members.

[larrysimon]

Larry.. you now seem to want to discredit this Forum and that is NOT acceptable to me and i suspect many other members.

No you are absolutely incorrect about discrediting the Forum it is a place for free discussion its not a dictatorship or ruled by the thought police, if you dislike the truth and content of my posts that is your problem not mine. I did not realise you think and speak for ALL the members on this forum ????

[AndyPen]

As long as the vendor's are honest in the fact it is a rebuilt replica that has been done as well as it could be, I for one am happy. I actually think replicas have their own kind of value.

This forum (and others) keeps us informed and aware. Can we keep one of Larry's comments to ensure we retain his message please Mark? If Larry then has any follow ups after his actions with the police or DVLA, then I'd invite him to let us know too.

Let's enjoy these great cars and their heritage

[mk1coopers]

As Mark has said, the threads on the works cars are for largely historic information, the threads were preserved from another forum rather than being lost when the owner of that forum sadly passed away, having constant discussions that go round and round about the same cars isn’t productive, there’s been some great threads on here where lots of interesting information has been posted about cars that aren’t what they seem, so it’s not a forbidden subject, there just comes a point where it’s repeated information.

The ‘politics’ behind these cars is one of the main reasons I’m not a member of Mini a club now, if people feel really strongly about particular cars they do have the option to take that further with the relevant authorities.

[Pete]

I think Larry Simon (who for the record I don’t know) is getting a hard time here, the reason I THINK he’s so invested in this subject is that he knows exactly how the current car came to be from his own personal experience, ie not just supposition or heresay . I think he’s every right to voice his take on it within the laws of misrepresentation or slander of course, but that’s his look out. If we censor stuff like this (within reason!) we’re just as guilty at covering up fraudulent activity as so many famous car fakers are which I’m personally dead against and always have been. All fakers do is undermine this whole thing and the day we accept it as ok is the day I’ll pack it in. People can’t flag up the devious activity of a certain infamous faker and fraudster from the midlands and then say Larry Simon can’t do the same with justified reasons of course, that’s hypocracy.

Yes it’s sad that many discussions about works cars end like this. But you have to ask yourself why that is, I wouldn’t be to quick to shoot the messenger.

[mk1coopers]

I agree Pete, the information should be out there (on multiple cars) so that, should they come on the market, people can make an informed decision on how ‘right’ a car is and if they want it, as has been said before Phil Short was always very open about the origins of the car, time has past and suddenly it’s the actual car that did XY or Z and the price rises accordingly.

I don’t know the best solution to the issue, as you say there are legal boundaries for what can be said.

[spoon.450]

We’ve been in this situation many times when discussing various ex works minis. I personally am very interested to hear as many true facts about the cars past and present histories as possible, and appreciate that the discussions should be kept polite. It is sometimes difficult to come across as polite when pointing out untruths and this aggravates the people who are unwilling to share the true facts.

[LMM76C]

I compiled most of the "works period" data on that other forum under the user name I was asked by that forum owner to use as "works car administrator" there. That started because of some inaccuracies in the "bibles" such as Browning and Price that I realised were not generally known to all interested parties when the history of GRX309D was first being investigated. I was a bit reluctant to take on the works task because,
In particular, of the controversy it seemed to generate.
I am forever grateful that the work was not lost and was transferred to this forum. I always saw my part as strictly limited to the works period - for the simple reason I knew little about "post works" history then. Graham did encourage me to expand into the post works histories but I largely was able to avoid that. Others had promised to cover it but never delivered on the earlier forum.
Having been around at the time of DJB93B's works period, I was interested to examine it at an early public appearance and realised not all was as described at that time. When it was advertised for auction, I contacted the auction house and asked one question: "which parts of this car are original?". The next I saw was that it was "withdrawn from sale".
After early years building and rallying Minis, I became totally divorced from the Mini scene for many years and was more occupied with rallying an Escort at International level. I obviously have a view but it is up to the forum owner and others as to whether post works Mini history is covered on here. I have always seen the two as fully separable and not necessarily intertwined and would never want to see pure works history compromised in any way by later history of the registration numbers.

[LMM76C]

On the pure works history aspect of DJB93B, lets remember that it has not been definitively proven that the car destroyed on the 66 Gulf was the 65 RAC and 66 Scottish DJB93B. A number plate swap to another works car remains a possibility. The search for photos post Scottish/pre Gulf continues...

[Pete]

I contacted the auction house and asked one question: "which parts of this car are original?"

You know what I wouldn’t even get too carried away with that question because competition cars are likely to get stripped and modified more than most in their lives. The only question I’d ask : is the car a total lie from start to finish or is it honest? No matter how many parts get changed a car with continuous history is not a lie but one crafted from the ground up from an old photo of a car you don’t own, a fraudulent logbook application and a bullshit story is a lie no matter how well built it is. It’s that simple for me.

The irony of this discussion on here especially is that it was the late Graham Robinson who initiated this section (imported from Graham’s forum) and he started it purely because he was sick to the back teeth of the dishonesty of a certain number of works Minis,(albeit the minority) overshadowing his passion for the cars.

[larrysimon]

For the record.

I'm more than prepared to divulge Who, When, Where and Why this car was "Ringed", This particular Car and event is significant because it started a whole cottage Industry of "Rediscovering Scrapped Ex Works Mini's". Several people used the same process to apply for Ex Works cars V5 log books even thou these cars were long scrapped and ceased to exist.

The car now registered DJB 93B is a 100% fake version of the BMC Works Rally Car, No parts from the original Rally car exist or have been incorporated into this vehicle currently for sale.

I'm sorry if this situation upsets you, but think how you would feel if you had just spent £100,000 on an Ex works Mini only to find out it was in fact a total fake with no genuine provenance.

[Exminiman]

As someone said earlier, really, why do you care so much about this car ?

You only have one subject and you obviously only joined the forum to use the forum as a tool to fight your battle, what ever that is.

And no I have no connection with works Minis and I have nothing to hide.....I and maybe many others are fed up with the same old “ been here before” Works mini arguments, Triggers Broom etc.......
As a side note, how many works cars (any make) could you say for sure would be the same collection of parts that competed in any particular competition, especially if they are restored ?

[Pete]

As someone said earlier, really, why do you care so much about this car ?

He pretty much explains that in his first paragraph : that it started a cottage industry ‘rediscovering’ scrapped ex works Minis, very hard to argue with that and yes quite a few did follow this example! (Actually at least one works logbook application does predate DJB). It does matter whether uncomfortable reading or not, just bear in mind also that owners of genuine cars have been prevented from being reunited with their original registrations as a repercussion of these activities!

[Exminiman]

As someone said earlier, really, why do you care so much about this car ?

He pretty much explains that in his first paragraph : that it started a cottage industry ‘rediscovering’ scrapped ex works Minis, very hard to argue with that and yes quite a few did follow this example! (Actually at least one works logbook application does predate DJB). It does matter whether uncomfortable reading or not, just bear in mind also that owners of genuine cars have been prevented from being reunited with their original registrations as a repercussion of these activities!

No, I mean this car......his comments are focussed on this car....think I will leave the discussion now....

[66Traveller]

As someone said earlier, really, why do you care so much about this car ?

He pretty much explains that in his first paragraph : that it started a cottage industry ‘rediscovering’ scrapped ex works Minis, very hard to argue with that and yes quite a few did follow this example! (Actually at least one works logbook application does predate DJB). It does matter whether uncomfortable reading or not, just bear in mind also that owners of genuine cars have been prevented from being reunited with their original registrations as a repercussion of these activities!

No, I mean this car......his comments are focussed on this car....think I will leave the discussion now....

Surely this is the point. Why this car in particular? The history of this replica is well known and in the public domain (both on this forum, elsewhere and in the magazine articles at the time it was re-created) for any potential purchaser to find. The real problem is the way the description of what it is has changed over time and at the hands of different auction houses into something which is misleading. That is a problem. But at least there is no earlier or other surviving version of this vehicle as is the case for some other ex works cars.

[mk1]

I have had enough. This topic is now locked.

The history of DJB 93B is very well known. It was recreated as a replica / recreation of the original Works car back in the 1990's. This has been said numerous times on this thread as well as having been published elsewhere on the internet and on paper in various publications. There is no way that I could ever censor the history of this car, even if I wanted to, it is FAR TOO WELL KNOWN ALREADY!

As owner, moderator & administrator of this forum, I have always got to walk a VERY difficult line between allowing people to say what they want & being aware that it is me who could be held liable for what is said on the forum by ALL members. One thing I do know with absolute certainty is that the subject of Works cars causes more bad feeling & upset than all the other possible subjects put together. When I see a member like Larrysimon who contributes absolutely nothing to the forum apart from spewing bile in a single thread about one car, I have to wonder what his motives actually are.

It is very well known by anyone who cares anything for these cars that MANY of them, in fact I would go as far as saying that the majority of them are to one extent or another bent & to single out one car who's history as a replica / recreation is very well documented seems perverse to say the least.

For many years I avoided discussion of the Works cars on the MK1 Forum for the simple reason that it was more trouble than it was worth. Any threads on these cars invariably lead to a hysterical slanging match causing a massive amount of bad feeling & doing no one any credit or good. I do my best to avoid situations like this as if mutual respect is lost then the MK1 Forum is as good as dead. I agreed to host this section & transferred it over from another web site owned by the late Graham W Robinson, as I felt that the IN PERIOD history of these cars was something worth preserving & keeping in the public domain. At the moment, I genuinely wonder about the wisdom of this decision & should this thread or section continue to cause this much bad feeling I will be forced to review my previous decision.

I hope that I have made my present position absolutely clear & hope that normal service can now be resumed.