davidscothorn wrote:
A recreation could not be kept secret, otherwise it could never be shown publicly.The DVLA (having much material archived and monitoring these forums) would drop on it like a ton of bricks. If they did not, there is something very wrong with their systems. Which Club or individual would have the nerve to lose their reputation by validating such a car?
the dvla don't seem to 'drop on these cars like a ton of bricks' as they used to accept the word of a club as gospel when the cars where inspected.
its not the dvla's remit to confirm the authenticity of cars, all the do is issue the V5c's - for many years they had the goodwill to assume that clubs, committees and people doing the vouching where 100% above board with the interests of the cars, the reputation of the club, and the reputation of the car in their best interests.
of course, due to the values of many models of classic cars, people who are less than honest have taken advantage of this.
it was the actions of the Bugatti club that really brought this change in the attitude of the dvla and I think the dvla are now finding themselves in a situation that they don't really know what to do as they don't want to be found liable if they sign anything off as 100% right which turns out later to be wrong.
I think people are too quick to bash the dvla for this, but they are really not the people who can police it.
Being someone who has lived on this planet for decades, (and to think you were referring to me would be probably be out of context), thank you for this sincere thread.
The DVLA enquiry merely states ''vehicle details could not be found'', not that it does not currently exist somewhere, and it was for this reason that I implied woe betide anyone who has the nerve to try to recreate one of them.
woe betide anyone who has the nerve to try to recreate one of them.
AMEN!
I think that this thread has been done to death a million times before & I have broken my first rule & got dragged into a bebate about Red & White Minis.
A lot of great stuff has been written on this thread by straightforward honest people and please may it continue. I will never own a works car or now even a mk1 850cc Mini but it is good to know all this information. This problem is still current as the latest works car 570 FMO is being built from a logbook and two wheel nuts. The car it is being built into is a Mk1 850cc that was built and imported from South Africa so how will this be classed as an Abingdon works car by anyone?
First, I must say that my comments in BOLD above were a response to a direct quote from your original post & I don't think that there was any way I took your comment out of context.
However, I TOTALLY ACCEPT That your intentions are absolutely nothing but 100% honourable in your endeavour to record the histories of these works & works supported cars.
I sincerely hope that you do manage to develop a definitive history of these cars.
Someone who has not lived on this planet for decades will undoubtedly have heard stories of how some (if not the majority) of these cars have been "resurrected" since the mid 1980's. It is also notable that a good proportion of these dubious cars have been "found" by the same small group of people. I suppose that there is a certain amount of Chicken & Egg here, in that people who are interested in these cars will undoubtedly spend time hunting them down. This is however something that the authenticating club has been singularly reluctant to address, at least publicly, and this has to some extent tarnished the whole field of Ex Works Minis.
I accept that due to the DVLA tightening up on the resurrection of long dead Log Books, this is probably an issue that is more in the past than the future. But just looking at issues that are widely known & have been publicly discussed recently. There are cases where there has certainly been more heat than light generated.
It is beyond question that a lot of the resurrection of Works cars was based around the information given in Pete Browning's Book. This is why this information was deleted from later editions.
The original point I made was that I didn't think it was wise to publicise which cars were still unaccounted for. Yes, the info is fairly easy to obtain & anyone who was intent on trying to make another fake works car will be able to find the information in question without too much difficulty, but isn't this attitude akin to leaving the keys to the bank in the door because if someone really wants to get in they can use high explosives?
I only make these observations in a spirit of transparency.
Mark F
(Original edited for factual accuracy)
The original content appeared to be accurate, and well put to me....
Last edited by spoon.450 on Fri May 26, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think at the end of the day people are just going to draw their own conclusions. The creation of cars from a logbook , a donor car and a pile of parts is certainly not exclusive to works Minis. It goes on all the time with road cars and I came to the conclusion years ago that I just don't care that much, I've bought and sold a few like that . Each to their own, I gave up falling for all the BS years ago, one by one pretty damning pictures and credible reports of each works Mini pretty much illustrated how one after the next most of them weren't what they appeared or were described as. We've had quite a few turn up on here, stories and pictures of cars that were smashed, rolled, roof cut off at the pillars, scrapped, turned into trailers, you name it. It was evidently not difficult to get a logbook for a works Mini in the 80s and 90s and actually to play Devil's Advocate I'd say so what? If as happened with DJB 93B it's described as a recreation or a replica most people wouldn't have an issue. The two problems with that are that they're rarely described as replicas and sometimes a real one turns up for which someone else has already (wrongly) claimed the logbook! There also seems to be a ten or fifteen year gap in the history of so many, how many times have you read about the history of a restored works Mini that even mentions the 'Twilight Zone' that was the 70/80s?
There's certainly more important things to worry about in life I'm absolutely sure but small wonder people are generally so sceptical about all this stuff.
I’m going to break one of my own rules now, because like many others, I am getting sooo tired of this endless re crunching of the same subject, with inferences of evil.
The fact that you would like my input is flattering, and I can assure you, I would like nothing more than to put here the definitive list (which exists) and put this subject to bed.
But I’m afraid it is not quite that simple.
The survival rate for works cars in Abingdon shells, contrary to popular and uninformed opinion, is quite high, and is on current information 40%, and quite respectable
when compared with Coopers or Cooper S models.
But my problem here, is that that leaves 60% of surviving cars that are reshells. (you all seem to call them fakes which means that most standard Mini shows would probably be about 90% fakes)
From what I have seen on this forum and others, there is a minority who are out to rubbish anything red and white, (for their own and unfathomable reasons) based on often nothing more than misinformation, and often forum hearsay.
I suspect that those individuals would take that 60% and shout the walls with LOOK at all the fakes! Well maybe they are, and maybe they are not. Another argument I think.
Nobody does this on standard cars, because nobody knows or cares! However, some of the works car owners are my personal friends, and indeed I have helped many of them with the countless hours of research that is required to restore one of these cars properly. On numerous occasions, I have visited their cars and their homes, over the years, taken photographs, and it was never the deal that I should later publish, and then watch their victimisation and trial by internet! Indeed several works owners have said to me “Why is there so much internet hatred of red and white cars”?
The list of histories, already exists with reasonable confidence. Believe me the history of the vast majority of cars is known in some detail by those of us who have owned and researched works cars for many years.
However I for one will not 'publish' what I know for several reasons.
I have been kindly invited (and continue to be) into many owners homes to view their cars (good or bad)
For me my interest is just a hobby, and anything I have learned is for personal use, and if I were to publish, I would certainly never be invited again or to see anybody else’s car, and apart from anything else it would be pretty rude and a betrayal of trust.
It is up to current owners what information they share about their cars, which after all are their own personal property, and certainly not my place to do it. (in my opinion)
I can, however talk in generalities.
The overriding modern opinion, based on zero knowledge, is that all works cars are fakes. (We never went to the Moon either I gather)
The same opinion is stating that Cooper S's in general, maybe 10% of them are genuine cars.
Well from my records, the Works cars have fared a lot better.
I count 78 cars (some are duplicated and survive, hence the larger number).
Of these, 15 are dead and gone, 6 are unknown to me, so I cannot have an opinion.
That leaves 63, including the unknowns.
From my records, I count 25 cars in original Abingdon bodies, which I make to be 40% of the surviving cars.
This figure may be better, if I can ever see the cars that are unknown to me.
However, all the information I have is simply my opinion, based upon many years of study, and a fair bit of it based on information provided by others. But I can prove little of it in Law.
When cars are worth silly money, I would be very reluctant to publish that car X is or is not this or that.
The consequences of my information being wrong, leaves me personally open to litigation for deformation and potential devaluation, and I certainly will never put myself in such a situation.
That is why I do not chip in to beered up speculation. Usually.
So until the day dawns, when Works cars, reshelled or not, are appreciated for the effort that has gone into their restoration, and even the dubious ones recognised for sheer effort, by generally nice people who are no different from any of you. The list will never be published, and you will remain wondering.
These are the flagship cars of our mark, and it is difficult for me to understand why some of you, would continuously score own goals, as it reflects just as poorly on the cars that you own too.
I know of only maybe 2 instances in 35 years where owners have been shall we say economical with the truth, (not counting auction houses who are in general quite disgusting) but it has always quickly changed when it was realised quite how much is known about each car in certain quarters. On the whole, I would say I have only encountered a high degree of honesty from owners, and I know that it seems that such a comment is not currently PC.
Works cars vary considerably, from the superb original, the unrestored, the reshelled, but with all original bits, to the reshelled with no original bits, and a few can be classified as ‘generic’ cars, and were restored from no more than a copy of Peter Brownings Works Minis book. The latter, I would not cross the road to look at, but that does not mean I would criticise it in public, unless the owner was claiming it was all pukka! But we know which ones are which.
But they are what they are, and we are stuck with each car as it exists, each deserves our appreciation, not our scorn, and I for one would rather see it exist to celebrate our motoring history than not. Even a poor car can one day be improved, take the recent JMO, and that keeps the spirit alive, and flies the flag for what those great guys at Abingdon did. My aim is to encourage the owners to research them, and get them right, and along the way to record what is genuine and what is not with the right people.
I cannot do that by joining in the throng of ‘Oh they are all fakes’. It is most unfair on the owners, and serves no purpose, and it is also wrong.
I don’t see signs put up on 90% of the standard cars at Beaulieu, saying Fake, or Replica, as they are still Minis. Why should anybody who owns a works car be expected to act differently, and does it make him untruthful or dishonest if he doesn’t? In reality, all the owners I have met, have been quite open if asked. But take a tip, it only works if you ask them nicely, and with respect, and certainly not how I have seen approached on some of these forum witch hunts.
So go on then chaps, prove me wrong over the coming months, and just maybe we may get to the point where people like me, and owners generally may feel more inclined to contribute openly, without fear of their car being the next in line to be criticised, or worse ridiculed, by people who say that they don’t want a works car anyway!
Guy
I don't think the cars will be criticised or ridiculed if the people responsible for them are totally honest. The stories / histories behind some of the cars is very interesting in its own right anyway.
To be honest I've seen people pull apart standard cars that have been reshelled to, look at the info on the WTF eBay thread or FB when a 'ringer' comes up for sale , this probably happens less (or is less widely known about ) just because the cars are not in the public eye as much and they don't have the monetary value attached to them that the Works cars do.
There are good Works cars with continuous histories and correct shells out there and there are cars that were created from nothing more than a V5 application, this also applies to standard cars, the trick is to do your research before buying anything so you are happy with what you have
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1963 austin Cooper s mk1 1071
1966 Austin Cooper s mk1 1275
1968 Austin Cooper mk2 998
1962 Morris mini super 850
Porsche 997 turbo S
Ford transit van 280s.
Yes i can totally understand respecting some peoples right to privacy, I'm reading between the lines and they have a genuine ex works car but don't want anyone to know?
but also irritated at the 'I know what I know and I'm not telling or backing any of it up with facts' attitude, and i know I shouldn't be as i have no dog in this fight
I mean we all dream of that mythical barn find but still its unlikely to happen.
I just hope all this info he has is safely documented and stored away for future generations to hopefully reference.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
It sounds to me that the ex-works fraternity is a Secret Society who think they hold top secret hidden information on the post Abingdon history and whereabouts of many of these cars. Many believe this arrogant attitude contradicts and is at odds with the governance of a club that was established to be the watchdog to help identify the genuine from the bogus Cooper cars for members and interested people.
Don't give up, well not with the hobby and research anyway.
Clearly there are fall outs, miss-communications and personal differences over 50 years of history that cloud things. You (and others) have done a lot of work to document things, and without that work the issue would be more clouded
It seems to me that 'original' and 'completely original' have become confused.
I'm no expert, but I'll bet no one bought an ex works car from Abingdon to display and preserve, they bought them to rally or rally cross, (the purpose for which they were built and intended) so they went on to compete in a car-breaking sport and then passed down the line to various other owners and uses.
People need to accept this and the impact this had on their originality. In short, all red and white cars exist in shades of grey.
You might be lucky and your barn find turns out to be 'Completely original' as last rallied by the works and still with it's original abingdon air in it's tyres. Or it might need a lot of research to prove where it's particular shade of grey fits in the spectrum
The fact that the works were not like museum curators in their record keeping is very well known, making the job of the historian almost impossible, at worst being reduced to best guess.
For the good of historians and enthusiasts (now and in the future) these debates are vital, especially if journalists and authors and the like are to present cars fairly in print. To do this people on all sides need to understand that the world is not made of absolutes, and that with red and white cars (as with Bugattis, Jaguars, Ferraris etc. etc.) history is both what alters the cars as well as what fascinates us about them.
Information held based on research (not just opinion) is key, and sharing it is a vital first step. People can then make of it what they will. But if people view information but base their opinion on a presumption of fraud / dubiety rather than reading the research, it's quite understandable that those researchers won't feel inclined to share.
Catch 22
So, good on those involved for carrying out true research and putting in the work over the years, and lets hope both 'sides' (and why are there sides? everyone is an enthusiast of the wee cars) can agree on the fact that 'original' is a loose and not a fixed term, and as long as the terms of that originality are known, everyone should be able to enjoy the cars for what they actually are.
With this well argued last post, I would like to vary the subject!
Which is about where should my (our) unpublished paper records and research be donated when I (we) die?
Reluctantly, along with most of those who were around during the ''Abingdon Years'', I (we) shall possibly be dead within a generation.
The alternatives seem to be:-
Leave them to relatives for an unknown future
Pass them on to a car club for limited member information.
Bequeath them to an independent archive. (eg a County Records Office or Gaydon) for public benefit.
The pros and cons of these are fairly self-evident, but I would like to know peoples' comments.
Unless anyone knows, I intend to email the FBHVC to ask for their recommendations.
Just worth adding.
Gaydon, The Warwickshire County Archive and Healey Museum (Netherlands) have a good proportion of Healey
and AustinHealey records. The rest are believed to be in Club and private hands.
The Berkshire and Oxfordshire County Records offices (pre and post 1974, when Abingdon merged with Oxfordshire), as far as I know, have not yet been approached about their capability to preserve such material.
What a great post Al.
You have it in a nutshell.
All the time there is inference if dishonesty or fakery, the whole thing clams up.
Even if it were all announced in glorious technicolor., I don't suppose they would believe it anyway!
So better it goes with me to my grave.
And any way, neither I nor the Mini Cooper Register can give out personal information about peoples cars for fear of being sued.
If every mini owner were asked by a club, is your car rebodied, how many do you think would fill in the form, or how many would not join?
It is fanciful to think that owners of not so original cars would offer up, if they thought that the information would be published for all to see.
It is human nature. I guess too that a lot of the owners don't even know if their cars are right or wrong.
It is left to a few of us to record it, but if we plaster it all over the place, who will share with us.
I repeat again, it is down to each owner.
Guy
A very well-mannered argument on this subject and thanks to all involved. This debate was always going to happen. As the great Max Bygraves said “I wanna tell you a story” Over three decades ago the MCR was formed because the Mini Cooper Club was riddled with nepotism and favouritism that fact cannot be denied. There was good reason for change and many fine people helped establish the MCR. The MCR club is still to this day populated with fine decent people many I’m proud to know and still keep in contact with to this day. Many years ago in the days before the internet I pointed out to a senior member of the MCR that his comments about a friend’s Mk1 Cooper S in the MCR monthly magazine was vicious without need. I was told in no uncertain terms that if the hat fits wear it. For over two decades MCR committee members have repeatedly condemned cars regardless of who they offend. It looks to me that the birds have come home to roost as their more expensive cars now have been put under the spotlight.
Should we say if the hat fits wear it? No, time for a bit of harmony and respect on both sides of this argument is my sincere opinion.
What we do not need is the arrogant attitude what we know we hold and will take it to our graves. This is centre to the whole issue. In my humble opinion the history of these cars are British motorsport history and the right of no one to think it is only their information.
History belongs to everyone I was taught at school many years ago.
may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
