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But I'm an optimist Pete
Yep as sure as god did.... I will put money on it somebody runs out of petrol somewhere today because they are badly organised.
Its the same with an EV. It just doesn't make the headlines if somebody runs their car out of juice and the owner starts stamping their feet saying "this is a travesty. I bought that car in good faith and they haven't installed a charge point at the location I ran out.. 'yet' "
The range is displayed on the dash. Its the same principle as having a tank of fuel. The gauge is progressive and what these dummies neglect to recognise is that as you drive a car the range goes down. If you press the gas pedal harder it goes down faster. If you feather the throttle it goes down less quickly
God help me if I ever run out of charge but I promise you if I do I will shoulder the blame and wont be running off to the local Gazette saying it was everybody else's fault.
And I definitely won't be telling Costa

An interesting video on JCB and their development of the hydrogen powered engine. Seems strange that the UK government appear to be ignoring this as a parallel option to EVs.

https://youtu.be/jxtxZY45RMM

111Robin wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:51 pm An interesting video on JCB and their development of the hydrogen powered engine. Seems strange that the UK government appear to be ignoring this as a parallel option to EVs.

https://youtu.be/jxtxZY45RMM

You may think about the government whatever - but possibly they are not so stupid in every respect.

I am repeating myself, groundhog day time again.
Hydrogen is very wasteful in production (cue: losses in transformation and transport). Very inconveniant at the re-fill station (f.k.a. petrol station) cause it ices up around the filler neck. This means waiting time...
To produce it in the quantities required for cars, means it's gonna be made from methan (i.e. the mega-greenhouse gas) under a lot of CO2 emission on top from production and transport. I.e. this sso called grey and blue hydrogen is sanything but environmentally friendly, nor has it a positive effect on greenhouse gas emissions, nor is cleaner than pure electricity and it certainly is very expensive and scarce.
We will need more than all yet sustainably produced* hydrogen (10% currently) for lorries, ships, planes, metal works, etc.

*from wind and solar

MiNiKiN wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:26 pm

111Robin wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:51 pm An interesting video on JCB and their development of the hydrogen powered engine. Seems strange that the UK government appear to be ignoring this as a parallel option to EVs.

https://youtu.be/jxtxZY45RMM

You may think about the government whatever - but possibly they are not so stupid in every respect.

I am repeating myself, groundhog day time again.
Hydrogen is very wasteful in production (cue: losses in transformation and transport). Very inconveniant at the re-fill station (f.k.a. petrol station) cause it ices up around the filler neck. This means waiting time...
To produce it in the quantities required for cars, means it's gonna be made from methan (i.e. the mega-greenhouse gas) under a lot of CO2 emission on top from production and transport. I.e. this sso called grey and blue hydrogen is sanything but environmentally friendly, nor has it a positive effect on greenhouse gas emissions, nor is cleaner than pure electricity and it certainly is very expensive and scarce.
We will need more than all yet sustainably produced* hydrogen (10% currently) for lorries, ships, planes, metal works, etc.

*from wind and solar

I said "in parallel to the EV"
Thanks for the lesson.

Putting the question of hydrogen supply aside for a moment

I think its interesting how JCB are also being driven (scuse pun) by who and where their products (these are all just products) are serviced and fixed by - no use having a vehicle without a dealer network equipped to repair it.

Apparently, they have 700 odd thousand dealers world wide all who understand and are equipped to work on ICE engines - in broad terms, their solution is just changing the fuel....

The current EV solution( maybe it will change) seems best suited to use in metropolitan areas....or for shorter journeys

This is the crux. We are being pushed into EVs as the only option yet they will just not be suitable for all regions or operating requirements. All of the options should be made available, including highly efficient low emission ICE vehicles. By all means fully electrify densely populated cities, that is a great solution and it would work perfectly in most cases and would encourage the use of public transport. I'm not an "EV hater", I just want to have the choice of transport mode to suit my needs.

My Brother has run an Audi e-tron for the last 3 years, he had to borrow my car when he went down to London to see his Son & has to stop for a quick recharge between Harrogate & Lincoln, a journey he does regularly. In the three years he had it, it had a number of factory recalls & the suspension collapsed 3 times. He's just got rid & replaced it with a Hybrid Range Rover Velar.

I hope I never have to buy an electric car.

I'm not a "hater" by any means, I think they are a reasonable solution for some peoples transport requirements. If you are buzzing round a city where you are making short journeys & you have access to decent charging facilities they are fine, if you live in the middle of nowhere or do a lot of miles, a lot of things need to improve a lot before they are a real option.

This makes interesting reading.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/busines ... -vehicles/

likewise, not an EV hater, actually, I quite fancy one for work, just couldn`t find one for a sensible price that would do what we needed...

I dont think the servicing repair network question is to be under estimated, apparently (according to internet https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ountrywide.) Tesla have just 30 service centres in the UK and they make a point of owning them all

Is this enough for the whole UK ? doesn't sound enough to me - could certainly be an issue for them if they get significant recalls.

Prices will now start to drop to more attainable levels as 3-5 year old fleets of EV's go to auction. Anything novel starts off as expensive. Gradually as more manufacturers play catch up there will be more cars available to choose from which in turn dilutes the value of the existing, comparatively small pool of EV's and thereafter the values of these cars.
They are genuinely a great option but it isn't for everybody at this point in time. If you live in a rural area and do long journeys day in day out and you are doing this at pace then clearly choosing an EV would likely be a badly thought through decision.
Give it a few years and there will likely be a natural transition to EV's becoming mainstream (unless Porsche pull this synthetic fuel out of the bag, which I would love, but I suspect that will end up as a 'Betamax')

Having had a new Honda Civic, Audi A4, Golf, BMW 330d and 530e over the last 10 years I will say that all have had manufacturer recalls. It certainly isnt exclusive to EVs. The BMW's were the most frequent inc. EGR coolers that threatened to catch fire and various other bits and bobs. I looked on this as an opportunity to drive a new M3 or convertible for the day while my own car got a free valet
(Bizarrely my Audi A4 had 7 replacement windscreens in 70k miles??? Yet I haven't had a screen in any of the others??)

rolesyboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:32 pm Dunno. I am not aware of any substantive efforts to sue by the government?? Is this happening? Is it in the UK?

South Korea.

My mate is babysiting a 2017 Model S.

The range is 200 miles. It loses 5+ miles a day without use. It will take 2.5 to 3 hours to supercharge it from 100 to 220 miles, costing about 30 quid if you don't get it free.

It costs £20 to do the same mileage in a 2015 diesel S Class (he owns one).

Interesting. I run a 2022 Model Y every day. On the occasions where I’ve opted to use a Supercharger it takes 40 minutes from empty to give me 330 miles. I pay 9 pence per kWh at home which is under half the cost of a Supercharger.
On the basis that your mate charged the Tesla at a Supercharger station which costs double per kWh (which is the highest cost I have found for charging) then it would cost half that amount at home. That equates to £15 ie less than the indicated £20 to run the Merc. You don’t get the option of half price diesel
Based on your figures Teslas have come a long way in just a few years with a 50% increase in range and a massively reduced charging time. Imagine the progress we will see in another 5 years!!

It takes 5 minutes to fill that Merc. 20 gallon tank, range about 600 miles.

I'll leave it at Heathrow long term for two weeks in the depths of winter, and the range will be exactly the same as it was.

Progress with EV's? I hope so!

not quite on topic but what do we know about hybrid cars .. perhaps a better alternative to full EV .. i know nothing about either.

a better option i think as the engine can be very small and basically a generator for the electric side.
my works van is a mild hybrid, the engine stores juice into a small battery that's supposed to boost back into the system when required, most of the time you cant tell its there, there is some increased engine braking, noticed when new, i don't notice it now.
You cant tell its doing anything apart from high gear low rpm where you can sometimes feel a lurch as it clumsily drops torque back into the flywheel / generator system.

My uncle has a new (last year) Yaris hybrid. It's a fantastic thing capable of 70 mpg.

Toyota built the first Prius over 25 years ago now.

rolesyboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:15 pm Interesting. I run a 2022 Model Y every day. On the occasions where I’ve opted to use a Supercharger it takes 40 minutes from empty to give me 330 miles. I pay 9 pence per kWh at home which is under half the cost of a Supercharger.
On the basis that your mate charged the Tesla at a Supercharger station which costs double per kWh (which is the highest cost I have found for charging) then it would cost half that amount at home. That equates to £15 ie less than the indicated £20 to run the Merc. You don’t get the option of half price diesel
Based on your figures Teslas have come a long way in just a few years with a 50% increase in range and a massively reduced charging time. Imagine the progress we will see in another 5 years!!

CAR magazine has an EV test this month. Model Y, BMW iX1 ands a Merc EQB.

They didn't get the official 331 miles range but 235 miles and 3.2 miles per kWh. The BMW did 200/2.7 and the Merc 195/2.7.

£52,000 though!

Is this the same 'Car Magazine' reporting on their findings of the Model Y?

"The Long Range officially manages 315 miles, and it lives up to that billing from a full charge on a mild autumnal day. A robust range above 300 miles still feels pretty exceptional and will make charging anxiety a less frequent concern for many owners."
Comparatively similar findings to my real life ones.
Full article here
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-revie ... del-y-suv/

The very same.

Maybe it was a bad one as also they complained about the build quality.

The Merc won the test btw.

So completely inconsistent reporting on the same car from the same magazine. I did wonder if this second article was lifted from the South Korean publication??
I would not trust the 'Car' Magazine reviews on that basis. If I did I wouldn't know which issue to believe.
Either way it shows that we can all have a different perspective on things (& gives you a measure of the quality of their editorial staff)

I am happy to go with my own findings and personal/real world experience. Which thus far have been excellent. The Tesla powertrain is remarkable.
Is the build quality on par with a modern day BMW or Mercedes? Perhaps not. I considered the BMW i4 which was lovely but when I matched the options that came as standard with the Tesla it bumped the price up to nearer £75k. The Tesla is very good and its an incredibly practical and rapid car. And its one of the few EVs that currently allows you to tow a good sized caravan.
Does it cause me range anxiety -no more than my other ICE cars. I keep an eye on the range and if it gets low I charge it.

In answer to the original question 'Has the electric car bubble burst?' its an emphatic no.
The fact that practically every motoring magazine has 'EV this' or 'EV that' on the cover is pretty telling that the only way is up.
The EV market is just going to get bigger and better. Even Mercedes are doing it.

Great debate but too much of a time sink. Much love x