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I think he had a lot of punctures too. We now tend to glorify the 1275 S but it was always a flawed car in Gp2 spec because overheating could not be fully resolved within the rules.

Some may think this is getting way off topic but the Welsh is relevant to the overall story of 309.
I've just seen that Fall was leading the 66 British Championship by one point going into the Welsh.
For both BMC and Ford these "non-SMMT" events were usually a case of "yes you can borrow a car but we can't do a full re-preparation". The championship position just might have caused BMC to do a bit more for Fall's car in the couple of weeks between the RAC and the Welsh.
If it had been me, I would not have wanted an ex-RAC car with an engine with the standard 510 cam (as all the RAC cars except Makinen's were), 10bhp down on normal. The fast tarmac of Eppynt (Ordnance Survey spelling, in case someone of a Welsh persuasion insists it's one P !) would play a big part in the Welsh and the extra, normal, bhp would be important. A spare engine/box could have been dropped into the Hill RAC car but we can't discount the possibility that another car with a "normal" Gp2 engine (544 cam then) was quickly made road legal by putting the plates and tax disc from 309 on it!

Of course Fall lost the championship by retiring from the Welsh.

(and yes, I have done a Welsh - two in fact - in a 1275 S with a 510 cam)

RTJ wrote:

Gray wrote: I find it hard to understand the keep it secret mentality, if we had of had the likes of the web sharing info back from the 60s - 70s then we may not have so many of the recreations now that have been athenticated by experts with other real cars being disregarded.

There is a growing number of people who feel the same. Just because the powers that be have got it wrong, it dosen't make it right. I for one don't see any reason why this car, the real GRX309D should not be rightfully reinstated with it's registration number.

Great find

http://www.mountgreen.co.uk/

certain clubs will inevitably just close ranks,not comment and bury thier heads in the sand,not wanting to get caught in a shit storm.....but then repeatedly pop up and keep sniping at individuals ,with a self serving attitude of "we must not shake the tree"....there are "works" minis and there are "works minis" not all have been recreated from half a shell....some of them SHOCK HORROR must be the real thing,and this certainly seems to be very very real,and must be classed as an excellent piece of rallying history..
As a matter of interest how many pictures of "works " minis are out there showing them exactly as they were found when they were found..covered in dust,tins of old paint on the pidgeon poo covered roof etc etc ?? Is this because those photos simply do not exist for the car,because some are log book rebuilds ??

To put this into context though Mick I'd say that anyone rebuilding the remnants of any works rally car (or race car) could wake up on emorning to find an earlier (or later) version pop up out of the blue claiming to be "THE car". In fact anyone that's reshelled a Mini and rebuilt it could find themselves in exactly the same boat if the original rusty shell they discarded back in 1970 suddenly surfaces all these years later claiming to be the original.
So it's a minefield in reality but all I'd say to simplify the ethics of a situation like this is that the only person at fault when it comes to this sort of thing is the person that intentionally builds a fake in the first place, not rebuilds a car with good intention, but builds a car from literally nothing with the sole intent to deceive and often profit.
If a car club is approached to authenticate cars then they often get sucked into a no win situation where they're damned if they do and damned if they don't and at some point those decisions come back to bite them in the arse, sometimes through little fault of their own, this could be any car club. It's the fakers that are the problem not the system which can and obviously has been exploited in the past with a multitude of ex competition cars suddenly appearing like magic in the 1990's.
We also have to bear in mind that you could easily and quite legitimately have more than one application for the same identity of a car such as GRX 309D, the U.S car being a good case in point which is evidently also a genuine works car bearing the same registration number when shipped out to Sebring. Looking at the various versions of GRX 309D there could even be another shell around somewhere for yet another rally car that wore this number, so despite the fact this newly discovered rally car wears GRX 309D's original body number and appears in all aspects to be the original 'real deal' it is a complex picture.

The idea that someone discovering a genuine ex works competition car being advised to keep it quiet though is a very curious one as the story was always going to break, Dave was always going to reveal that body number at some point to reveal the truth no matter how inconvenient that may prove to be for any other owners of subsequent cars.

A couple more pics of 309D ( 2nd incarnation ?? ) on the 66 Polish

Pete wrote:To put this into context though Mick I'd say that anyone rebuilding the remnants of any works rally car (or race car) could wake up on emorning to find an earlier (or later) version pop up out of the blue claiming to be "THE car". In fact anyone that's reshelled a Mini and rebuilt it could find themselves in exactly the same boat if the original rusty shell they discarded back in 1970 suddenly surfaces all these years later claiming to be the original.
So it's a minefield in reality but all I'd say to simplify the ethics of a situation like this is that the only person at fault when it comes to this sort of thing is the person that intentionally builds a fake in the first place, not rebuilds a car with good intention, but builds a car from literally nothing with the sole intent to deceive and often profit.
If a car club is approached to authenticate cars then they often get sucked into a no win situation where they're damned if they do and damned if they don't and at some point those decisions come back to bite them in the arse, sometimes through little fault of their own, this could be any car club. It's the fakers that are the problem not the system which can and obviously has been exploited in the past with a multitude of ex competition cars suddenly appearing like magic in the 1990's.
We also have to bear in mind that you could easily and quite legitimately have more than one application for the same identity of a car such as GRX 309D, the U.S car being a good case in point which is evidently also a genuine works car bearing the same registration number when shipped out to Sebring. Looking at the various versions of GRX 309D there could even be another shell around somewhere for yet another rally car that wore this number, so despite the fact this newly discovered rally car wears GRX 309D's original body number and appears in all aspects to be the original 'real deal' it is a complex picture.

The idea that someone discovering a genuine ex works competition car being advised to keep it quiet though is a very curious one as the story was always going to break, Dave was always going to reveal that body number at some point to reveal the truth no matter how inconvenient that may prove to be for any other owners of subsequent cars.

Pete I just wish that I could have put it like you have.....(perhaps i should have listened more at school)


The facts on cars often get lost in the mists of time anyway,and this erosion of history will always take place..but the dodgy scamsters who turn over a large sum,just capitalise on this and most often help it and distort it to meet thier requirement,which to me makes finding out every bit of info on a car even more important....and the owner and finders of this car should not just be applauded by right minded mini fans but wholehartedly supported by us in thier efforts every step of the way.

Mick

Hohoho

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2115

I just love this. The US car might be OK, but when someone builds a fake, and the original surfaces. Fantastic

This was taken during the 66 RAC, the image is for sale through the motorgraphs website :

This was taken after the 66 polish :

It's rear when it was used in the states in 67 :

masnarda wrote:This was taken during the 66 RAC, the image is for sale through the motorgraphs website :

At least they got the year right on that one. A couple of the "66 RAC" photos I've seen near it on that site are 65.

masnarda wrote:This was taken after the 66 polish

(Posted elsewhere on here in the 309 saga) Isn't it before? (or did they have an ultra-efficient team of car washers that later taught those I now run the gauntlet of in Tesco's car park?

masnarda wrote:This was taken after the 66 polish :

is it me or is that bonnet badge 'wonky'

SMOKE GREY wrote:

masnarda wrote:This was taken after the 66 polish :

is it me or is that bonnet badge 'wonky'

And missing the S ?

Seems to be some sort of flaw in the photo. The other photo on that event shows a normal badge and the "S" in the right place (which it isn't in the Flowers photo).
I'm not entirely sure Fall was quite that thin and At quite that wide then!

spoon.450 wrote: 16th is not a particularly good result for Paddy on the 66 flowers, and if so do we know of any mechanical, or accidental issues contributing to this ?

Had a quick rummage Dave, here's the lowdown on the rally from Paddy himself :






Autosport write up :





So Paddy had fan/radiator issues leading to a loss of water.

Fantastic stuff, love these debates about the authenticity or otherwise of various "incarnations" of competition cars. I wonder in 50 years time will people be having similar debates about the provenance of today's WRC Focus or Polo's?

I wonder in 50 years time will people be having similar debates about the provenance of today's WRC Focus or Polo's

I'm sure they will.

M

I don't have anything really to add, however reading this;-

spoon.450 wrote: perhaps as Paddy drove it in the 66 Rally of the Flowers.

did make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up!

Damn awesome story and thanks for sharing.

"The filter had been left out by mistake after adjusting the carbs"
"Bench tests with and without the air filter showed no difference".

Yeah, right, but you had to have the different needles fitted to make a difference...
Remember, Fall was no stranger to getting the best from a Gp1 1275S and had a full year's experience with Appleyards' car!

They just weren't getting the message, even after Monte Carlo, that under the new Appendix J Gp1 standard meant standard and it would be checked.