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For us Colonials .. what's an RF60?? You mentioned a "Buff Logbook" but I seem to remember that (back in the 60s) my S had a green logbook???

Cheers, Ian

An RF60 is a registration Form 60 (like a US title).

It was a a sort of brown colour (hence the 'buff' name) and then became green. This was all changed with the computerization of records by the DVLA.

I'm not sure but I thought that the original RF60 was supposed to be handed in when the change came through and the DVLC (as it was then) photocopied the RF60's to store on micro film. You used to be able to request the previous owner details of any car you were the registered keeper of. It used to be free as well.... (Might still be possible but I'm sure they introduced a charge for it)

The log book as it is know does not imply that you are the owner of the vehicle named on it, just you are the keeper of it. It has no definition of ownership.

That V5 would go nicely on my old rally car.....and then make it even more unoriginal!

I think the whole registration documents thing is totally and utterly ignored by the police and DVLA. You can't sell a kitchen knife on ebay, because it might be used to cut someone's head off, but V5s to aid the potential nicking of cars....fine.

I would be very upset if my car got stolen and assigned a new identity. I almost want to get the electric drill out and permanently "mark it"

I suppose it was always going to be the case. You spend £2000 on a proper S block and box, then go to minispares for the rest, whack the ID on some old Mk1 and hey presto £25k.

Since the registration, LYW 387D appears on ebay, it would be someone with serious balls who has the neck to say "I've got the original car here", then with the likely follow up from the police, etc. Or not.

smithyrc30 wrote: I thought that the original RF60 was supposed to be handed in when the change came through and the DVLC (as it was then) photocopied the RF60's to store on micro film

That's true but lots of these documents lay around in drawers and weren't sent in, usually (from my experience anyway) because the car had been scrapped, rusted to bits or maybe just left in long term storage. Hence why this one is from a car that was registered in recent times through the V765 scheme.
Think I've told this one a few times so apologies in advance but I was asked to look at a '65 S some years ago, the owner of which was applying for a V5C from an RF60. The car that was presented for inspection was a 70's Clubman, in all respects (not even a reshell). I advised the owner of this (no surprise!) and refused the application based on lack of a car and lack of evidence.
Needless to say the applicant then sold the RF60 to a restorer in Cheshire who built a car from scratch (big job!) and was subsequently then successful in his application (not through me!). This box fresh Almond Green/White Austin Cooper S then appeared for sale with a dealer (Sussex Sportscars) for top money about five years ago (£30K was top money then) and off it went to a proud new owner. This sort of thing goes on all the time with some high profile restored cars going for massive money on a regular basis

Some would say it's another car back on the road (or a replica of it) and what's the big deal, and though I wouldn't vouch for something that's obviously on shaky legal ground and outwardly dodgy I'm actually inclined to agree on occassion. Nobody forces a buyer to shell big wonga on a pristine restored car with virtually no history or provenance, it's their choice, their money and I'm sure the owner of that car is enjoying it! (though might not do if he found out where it came from!) The real problems start if or when the original car turns up that's been hidden away in a barn for thirty years or is reimported back to the UK from a long holiday!

I think no one would be daft enough to try and make a car with that log book. The real car is probably out there somewhere with a V5. The audit trail of the log book being sold on ebay without the car is bound to come back and bite someone on the arse.

Does it though?

We are talking PROPER money here. A half decent fast Mk1 with period accessories, like I have, is probably about £7k. That's not £27k. When you're talking £27k, it's one big fat mark up. If the buyer hasn't got a clue they have bought a Mini Minor with some S bits and a doc, that doesn't make it right.

I'd be pretty cross if I spent £10k on a rolex and was really happy with everyone going "wooow, nice watch" and then some nerd saying "rolexes don't "tick" like that, yours is a Timex". I'd be fricking angry.

It's misrepresentation, it voids any contract. I do read these various adverts and note the slippery language and missed out things which would otherwise be in there. It's quite naughty....and then people, with too much money go wasting it and all that needs to happen is when they come to sell, someone rolls up and says "this is a Mk2 shell and all the components are Mk2, and it's a mini 1000, not a cooper" and it's disgusting. I find this misleading in order to enrich yourself downright wrong. It's fraudulent. Sure, loads of you have probably done it, but it doesn't make it OK.

I do note these various sales on ebay "1966 starter motor" "1966 wiper motor" etc, etc. Presumably so someone can go "look, all the numbers match".

One of the worst offenders for ripping people off lives in Torquay. I remember seeing an almond green Mk2 with Mk1 back lights 998 mini for sale in Autotrader (back in the day). This guy fitted it with a 970S engine +60 IIRC and SCCR box he had kicking around (no engine number IIRC). This lot went on ebay with a 65 Cooper S ID and fetched VERY STRONG money. He basically said "buyer beware with all these things" and it sold. I wonder if it's owner is on here.

the classic car market has gone from people messing around with old minis and old camper vans to these utter top end premium desireables.....The premium has attracted and encouraged people to do all sorts of fraud. I imagine it's the same with Mexico escorts, etc. People paying £1000 each for the original steel wheels, etc.

I friend of mine with connections checked the numbers of the papers on eBay and found out that the car belonging to the parers is regristrated in France since some weeks.....

almondgreen wrote:I friend of mine with connections checked the numbers of the papers on eBay and found out that the car belonging to the parers is regristrated in France since some weeks.....

Well there you go! Looking at Simon's DVLA screen shot it looks like they lost the export indicator when they updated the website? So now you can't tell if a car's been exported.

In the shed wrote:Does it though?

We are talking PROPER money here. A half decent fast Mk1 with period accessories, like I have, is probably about £7k. That's not £27k. When you're talking £27k, it's one big fat mark up. If the buyer hasn't got a clue they have bought a Mini Minor with some S bits and a doc, that doesn't make it right.

I'd be pretty cross if I spent £10k on a rolex and was really happy with everyone going "wooow, nice watch" and then some nerd saying "rolexes don't "tick" like that, yours is a Timex". I'd be fricking angry.

It's misrepresentation, it voids any contract. I do read these various adverts and note the slippery language and missed out things which would otherwise be in there. It's quite naughty....and then people, with too much money go wasting it and all that needs to happen is when they come to sell, someone rolls up and says "this is a Mk2 shell and all the components are Mk2, and it's a mini 1000, not a cooper" and it's disgusting. I find this misleading in order to enrich yourself downright wrong. It's fraudulent. Sure, loads of you have probably done it, but it doesn't make it OK.

I do note these various sales on ebay "1966 starter motor" "1966 wiper motor" etc, etc. Presumably so someone can go "look, all the numbers match".

One of the worst offenders for ripping people off lives in Torquay. I remember seeing an almond green Mk2 with Mk1 back lights 998 mini for sale in Autotrader (back in the day). This guy fitted it with a 970S engine +60 IIRC and SCCR box he had kicking around (no engine number IIRC). This lot went on ebay with a 65 Cooper S ID and fetched VERY STRONG money. He basically said "buyer beware with all these things" and it sold. I wonder if it's owner is on here.

the classic car market has gone from people messing around with old minis and old camper vans to these utter top end premium desireables.....The premium has attracted and encouraged people to do all sorts of fraud. I imagine it's the same with Mexico escorts, etc. People paying £1000 each for the original steel wheels, etc.

The thing is Shed that 'caveat emptor' rules and if a buyer with "too much money" as you put it doesn't do his homework before shelling out who's fault is it when they discover they've bought a lemon? Who's fault is it that they can't tell a Mk2 from a Mk1? Imagine paying £100K for a supebly restored works Mini only to find out it's no more than a replica built from scratch from a piece of paper and a couple of old photos but that's a buyers perogative, not yours, it's their money they're spending. I know next to nothing about go faster classic Fords but should I blow big money on a fake I won't be asking for sympathy cos I didn't know what I was doing.

I might also add that you may well under-estimate how much it would cost to build a shiny Mk1 S from scratch. I doubt there'd be much profit in it for the hours required and the cost of parts alone!

Each to their own Shed, people who are insistant they have a car with provenance will buy one, and they can usually smell a 'flat pack' special a mile off and those that don't care and just want to have fun with a shiny classic car will do that. It's about choice , and we all have that.
Like I say though, it's a gamble for anyone who builds a car from an RF60 should the original car turn up (and that has happened plenty of times as we all know!)

I suppose all this is result of bmc just screwing chassis plate on minis landrovers healeys etc
would there have been the same interest in these cars over the years if they had put permanent numbers on
I think not

pete wrote......I know next to nothing about go faster classic Fords but should I blow big money on a fake I won't be asking for sympathy cos I didn't know what I was doing

talking of go faster fords ..I have a 3.0s one previous owner 69000 mils zebarted from new ....absolute minter matching numbers original shell car ..a few years ago a Sheffield dealer asked me how much ..£10.000 I said to get rid of him ..too much for me he said ...a few weeks ago he rang and offered me £12000..no thanks
never sell to a dealer ..unless you want to see it at double ....what you sold it for... a few weeks later

Is this original old or repro nos???
http://ebay.to/1QJ3jUP

Two of the bidders on that S logbook must have done their homework or read this thread as they have retracted their bids - now at £5, which is probably more like it for a bit of unusable 'memorabilia'

Tip #17....when selling cool mini stuff on ebay use as many 1960s tuning company names and descriptors as possible in the description to nail your point.....

spensive.....HRG nonetheless

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271997052793

mini63 wrote:Tip #17....when selling cool mini stuff on ebay use as many 1960s tuning company names and descriptors as possible in the description to nail your point.....

spensive.....HRG nonetheless

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271997052793

Although it helps if you can spell prooper

Old English White wrote:

mini63 wrote:Tip #17....when selling cool mini stuff on ebay use as many 1960s tuning company names and descriptors as possible in the description to nail your point.....

spensive.....HRG nonetheless

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271997052793

Although it helps if you can spell prooper

Yes, it's always worth doing a search for "Copper" as many people spell it wrong. Another one I see all the time is "Layland"

I think the Shorrock badge must be a repro. I once owned a Triumph Herald 1200 convertible fitted with a C75B Shorrock supercharger (it never worked properly but that is a different story). That had a Shorrock boost gauge and a "Shorrock Supercharged" badge on the boot - I've still got some photos of it somewhere - I'll post them. The badge was a much cruder affair - made of alloy with black lettering. I also had a cast Allard Shorrock badge at one point but again I think that was a repro....

The Shorrock badge is a fantasy repro. The logo is taken from a Shorrock brochure & was never used as a badge.

The seller keeps offering a very nice variety of fantasy badges, this is just the latest.

Nice if you can get it for close to the starting price, but not worth much more.

M

In other news, the Vortz wheels are over £3k with 2 days left

Andrew1967 wrote:Two of the bidders on that S logbook must have done their homework or read this thread as they have retracted their bids - now at £5, which is probably more like it for a bit of unusable 'memorabilia'

Are you saying they weren't actually buying it to put on their garage wall in a frame?????