Page 129 of 759
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:15 am
by In the shed
The whole topic of reg docs and reshells is interesting.
My "ASBO" was a Mini SDL with cooper bits on it. (I wonder if they told the insurance company!!!)
I remember being at an autojumble in about 2004 and (I digress here, seeing a lotus twincam - weber headed engine and thinking £300! For that old crap which had been dragged out of a barn, the guy also had a free but sad 1760 crossflow engine for £150. If one could only have a time machine). One of the sellers had a 2" thick wad of reg documents and I thumbed through and he had EVERYTHING. E Types, MGs, Austins, Coopers, S, the whole lot. An old repair garage which kept them all. I remember thinking "What would anyone want with those?" apart from to get the cherished numbers off some of them.
The other day, I came very close to selling ASBO, but thankfully didn't. The prospective buyer wanted to use the shell for his Cooper S. I thought it was quite sad, but if the guy had wanted to crash it on a stock car circuit, it would have been his choice. His car, his choice.
I joked that it was like a ladyboy. It's not honest. You may think you have a beautiful wife, she may have the most perfect body and the surgeon may have done some incredible work, painstakingly getting rid of the beard, hairy chest, knob, etc. You might even enter her into a wet t shirt contest, or a reader's wives magazine, but for one second, do not call it a lady.
I remember Jason. A guy from down here somewhere, I imagine some of you are familiar with his work.... equipping "one born every minute" with reg-docced cooper esses, bits of dishonest kit and equipping himself with a fortune.. Never was there such a phrase as Caveat Emptor..... as long as the customer is happy, who cares?
There are countless people looking at their 1960 Mk4, or their not-cooper and really loving it. This is fine.....what isn't fine and what crosses a line is when someone bangs a load of bits together and swears blind it is original and then sells it as such. I look at all of these people saying "I need a 64 wiper motor for my 1071s" and think "really?". For me, it was always more about the smell of oil and tyres, the periodic gaps in the gear whine, the committment, planning and mental preparation for that major bend, the joy of having gone up that hill really fast. The enjoyment of the reactions of little children who have never seen one before. It doesn't matter if it's had 20 new shells, or has a metro engine....I see some of these reg-doc jobs in a similar vein to those slappers who get their virginity reinstalled by a needle and thread. It's fine if the seller says "Yep, the surgeon's put her back to factory, but she's been cocked more times than dick turpin's pistols" but that is rarely the case, is it not?
If I was in the market for a proper original Cooper or S, or other early mini. I'd want it owned by Miss Marple with a local history from Fred at the local garage and every elderly man in the pub to remember the car through the ages. Anything else is trigger's broom and arguably to me, worth the sum of it's parts and nothing more.
As far as keeping the deposits and people being messed around, I have recently been acquainted with the very worst of humanity on ebay (prospective S converter, very much not included) and I can understand why some people appear almost aggro in their sales pitch. The whole place is infested with vermin.
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:22 am
by Pete
In the shed wrote: The whole place is infested with vermin.
Morning Shed, what a bright and breezy way to start the week!
There's pond scum in any walk of life, why would the Mini fraternity be any exception, just avoid them!
As to reshells, logbook rebuilds, what ever floats your boat I say within the law, as long as you're happy with what's in your garage. It's when people start telling each other what to do with their cars is when it all gets very boring. I personally wouldn't want to own a pristine specimen built from a logbook, a donor shell and a heap of donor/new bits but some do and good for them. (in fact I've owned a few of them!
) (but didn't keep 'em)
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:48 am
by JC T ONE
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:50 am
by rich@minispares.com
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:35 pm
by Supersonic
If I was in the market for a proper original Cooper or S, or other early mini. I'd want it owned by Miss Marple with a local history from Fred at the local garage and every elderly man in the pub to remember the car through the ages. Anything else is trigger's broom and arguably to me, worth the sum of it's parts and nothing more.
Stuart,
You are so right could not agree more.
The laughable thing about a large percentage of Cooper S type cars is that there is no history whatsoever. I know a gentleman who has 3 Cooper S cars and apart from the V5c absolutely no history at all. A friend said to me the other day that Trigger’s broom is more original than a lot of these cars because even having had 17 heads and 9 shafts fitted they retained and reused the screw-nail from the original.
Rest assured there are a lot of original cars still out there with long history and to me that makes a car special. I agree with you tax book jobs are only worth the sum of the parts and nothing more. For me the history of a car is as important as condition.
I have often said anyone with money can get a concourse car built but cars with superb history are the ones harder to find.
The attached photographs show a very late Mk3 S and apart from the roof has never been painted or welded with a comprehensive history file from new.
Alan
DSC07740.JPG
DSC07741.JPG
DSC07742.JPG
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:46 pm
by Pete
Supersonic wrote: The laughable thing about a large percentage of Cooper S type cars is that there is no history whatsoever. I know a gentleman who has 3 Cooper S cars and apart from the V5c absolutely no history at all.
Don't forget not everybody is interested in the history of their car, doesn't automatically mean the car hasn't got any. My Unipower GT had little evident history when I bought it, I could write a book on it now.
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:46 pm
by Supersonic
Pete wrote:Supersonic wrote: The laughable thing about a large percentage of Cooper S type cars is that there is no history whatsoever. I know a gentleman who has 3 Cooper S cars and apart from the V5c absolutely no history at all.
Don't forget not everybody is interested in the history of their car, doesn't automatically mean the car hasn't got any. My Unipower GT had little evident history when I bought it, I could write a book on it now.
Pete,
I fully acknowledge some people do not give a jot about their vehicle’s history. For me, knowing where a car has been all its life really adds to the interest I have in it. It helps to place that car within the history of the 20th century in my mind, and notable events in its life, such as change of ownership, can be put in context with important events in your life like leaving school, starting work passing your driving test etc.
As well as the personal interest, it is a known fact that selling a car, with a lengthy and informative history, makes it more valuable and easier to sell, than an identical car that is missing this background information. The history file helps to paint a picture of where the car has spent its life, and how it has managed to survive after several decades.
Another problem nowadays is the cherished number-plate market - so many cars are now losing their original registration numbers, and being affixed with non-transferable 'age related' replacements. As soon as this happens, the continuity of a car and its original registration number is lost for good.
Knowing the history of a car is nice and to me as interesting as the vehicle itself!
That wee Mk3 Cooper S photographed on this thread has a history file you would need an office to store it in.
Then it takes all sorts to make the world.
Alan
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:39 pm
by mini5967
Who was the fella in this thread a year or two ago who got his old '63 1071 S that he'd owned as a kid in the 70s back in dramatic fashion in Stafford? He'd re-shelled it at least once IIRC, and was fairly straight up about it. Anyway, I don't recall anybody sneering at him for not having the original shell. Does that mean that car has no history? Does it bollocks!
A hypothetical question: which of these cars has no "history"? A Mk1 that comes as a rolling shell with a V5 and nothing else, no engine, decor, glass, etc, or a Mk1 that's been re-shelled (ideally in another Mk1 shell), but has at least a good chunk of the original car with it, plus V5, the original RF60 logbook and various documents, with a reasonably traceable history. Good question, isn't it?
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:07 pm
by WMU 211G
[quote="SupersonicAnother problem nowadays is the cherished number-plate market - so many cars are now losing their original registration numbers, and being affixed with non-transferable 'age related' replacements. As soon as this happens, the continuity of a car and its original registration number is lost for good.
Alan[/quote]
That's a good point Alan but sometimes a change of reg' number is actually just another chapter in a car's history and therefore part of that continuity in a way - my October '73 Jag XJ6 was held back at Browns Lane for press purposes then shipped new to Belfast in January '74 where it had an Army related number attached to it for just six weeks, it then moved to Scotland where the Dumfries issued number 'PSM 262M' went on until 1988 when the third owner put his cherished plate '876 XHY' on it for twenty three years, when owner number four bought it he had the 'PSM 262M' plates transfered back on to it. If you read some of the posts on the Jensen Owners forum you'd see that at least 50% of Interceptors have had one or more changes of registration number in their lives so really it's just par for the course. Having owned a few Rover P5s and P6s I found it was very common amongst owners of these cars too in the '70s.
IIRC quite a few Mk3 Cooper S's have had changes of number, particularly during the '70s - if Simon 776's column in the MCR mag is anything to go by it seems it was a regular occurance back in the day
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:31 pm
by In the shed
If I get my missus and graft her head onto arnie. It most certainly will no longer be my missus.
If I grafted Arnie's head onto my missus, in some sort of perverse biological truth, there would be something more authentic about the whole thing.
"Get to tha choppa"
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:31 pm
by mk1
If a car does officially loose it's original number & is given a age related number then NONE of the history is lost. You can still get all the info from records if you want, & it will all run concurrently showing the change of number as part of the story.
To be perfectly honest, & I have said this before, the "Mine is more original than yours argument" is just another part in the ongoing "pissing contest" where people are desperate to prove that their car is better than someone else's.
Personally I enjoy seeing beautifully restored originals, tatty originals, interesting race cars, kit cars blah, blah, blah the list goes on & on. I judge each on their merits & don't really give too much of a stuff as to what other people think & I wish that everyone else would do the same.
It is the mentality I refer to above that has acted as a massive disincentive for me to get the Speedwell car finished as I know that as soon as it breaks cover people are going to start picking it apart.
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:33 pm
by In the shed
Let's just enjoy our old minis, eh? Mine is probably more of a ladyboy than yours.
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:42 pm
by rich@minispares.com
mk1 wrote: "Mine is more original than yours argument" .
ive said it before, but this is what I like about the er-cooper s so much - its got its original shell, its original chassis number, but is still the most un original car ever
BUT and its a big BUT - it has all its history (from 1977 on, anyway)
as its been 'officially' a cooper s since then (and its v5c says its been a cooper s for longer than it was an 850), to me, its as original (or a lot more original) than many of these 'perfect' cars that people like to line up in neat rows at beaulee once a year.
I actually delight in the fact that cars like this make a certain group of people seethe, but then, im the one who isn't afraid to use my car, leave it parked in the street and actually enjoy it for what it is
polishing a 30 grand cooper s just isn't me!
ive no issue with 'in period' reshells etc - what I don't like is the wholesale selling of v5c's on ebay and the like - its obvious that these books are used (in part) to ring stolen cars - where else is this stream of body shells coming from? - look at Ant Hines mk3 cooper s - that vanished with out a trace, someone will have just stuck a handy v5 on it and made a fortune from it.
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:57 pm
by JC T ONE
Supersonic wrote:
Another problem nowadays is the cherished number-plate market - so many cars are now losing their original registration numbers, and being affixed with non-transferable 'age related' replacements. As soon as this happens, the continuity of a car and its original registration number is lost for good.
Alan
WMU 211G wrote:
That's a good point Alan but sometimes a change of reg' number is actually just another chapter in a car's history and therefore part of that continuity in a way - my October '73 Jag XJ6 was held back at Browns Lane for press purposes then shipped new to Belfast in January '74 where it had an Army related number attached to it for just six weeks, it then moved to Scotland where the Dumfries issued number 'PSM 262M' went on until 1988 when the third owner put his cherished plate '876 XHY' on it for twenty three years, when owner number four bought it he had the 'PSM 262M' plates transfered back on to it. If you read some of the posts on the Jensen Owners forum you'd see that at least 50% of Interceptors have had one or more changes of registration number in their lives so really it's just par for the course. Having owned a few Rover P5s and P6s I found it was very common amongst owners of these cars too in the '70s.
IIRC quite a few Mk3 Cooper S's have had changes of number, particularly during the '70s - if Simon 776's column in the MCR mag is anything to go by it seems it was a regular occurance back in the day
Nidge
A plate dont make a car - period.
Its just some goverment issued registration "thingy" to keep track of it.
If a car should be jugded by its plate, hardly any original car would exist in countries, where the plate is removed, when the car is traded in.
These countries issue new plates, everytime a car has to be registred.
My green Mini Special has been in the family since it was new (16-12-1978) and it has had atleast 4 sets of plates.
I dare anyone to tell me its not the correct car.
Graham Robson wrote a good article on this in Mini Magazine May 2008 issue.
Jens Christian
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:10 pm
by rich@minispares.com
JC T ONE wrote:
A plate dont make a car - period.
Its just some goverment issued registration "thingy" to keep track of it.
If a car should be jugded by its plate, hardly any original car would exist in countries, where the plate is removed, when the car is traded in.
Graham Robson wrote a good article on this in Mini Magazine May 2008 issue.
Jens Christian
.
jens
in the uk the plate is 100% part of the cars history as it stays with the car (unless its transferred) - even in period a lot of cars ran 'cherished' (i.e very short pre war issue) plates which moved from car to car, but until the market for plates became so valuable most cars just kept the one plate as it was just not considered worth moving them about.
its not like in other counties where plates chop and change and move around when a car is sold, its an intrinsic and valuable part of a cars history - this is why over here cars are always spoken bout by their registration numbers rather than the chassis numbers.
I always think its a shame when a car has lost its plate, but it wouldn't stop me buying one, the trouble is that some of the short plates are worth so much money that there is no way they will be left on a mini now a days (unless the owner is seriously coined!)
plates and plate history is a fantastic subject to be interested in over here
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:16 pm
by JC T ONE
rich@minispares.com wrote:
in the uk the plate is 100% part of the cars history as it stays with the car (unless its transferred) - even in period a lot of cars ran 'cherished' (i.e very short pre war issue) plates which moved from car to car, but until the market for plates became so valuable most cars just kept the one plate as it was just not considered worth moving them about.
its not like in other counties where plates chop and change and move around when a car is sold, its an intrinsic and valuable part of a cars history - this is why over here cars are always spoken bout by their registration numbers rather than the chassis numbers.
I always think its a shame when a car has lost its plate, but it wouldn't stop me buying one, the trouble is that some of the short plates are worth so much money that there is no way they will be left on a mini now a days (unless the owner is seriously coined!)
plates and plate history is a fantastic subject to be interested in over here
I know that Rich, no dissagreement to what you wrote.
Its all those paper / envelope cars I was referring to
plus all those nice cars, that lost their original plates, and suddenly people dont regard them as genuine anymore
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:46 pm
by surfblue63
In an attempt to close the can of worms...
...these Cosmics went for a reasonable price
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Cooper-S ... 7675.l2557
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:31 pm
by Supersonic
mk1 wrote:If a car does officially loose it's original number & is given a age related number then NONE of the history is lost. You can still get all the info from records if you want, & it will all run concurrently showing the change of number as part of the story.
To be perfectly honest, & I have said this before, the "Mine is more original than yours argument" is just another part in the ongoing "pissing contest" where people are desperate to prove that their car is better than someone else's.
Personally I enjoy seeing beautifully restored originals, tatty originals, interesting race cars, kit cars blah, blah, blah the list goes on & on. I judge each on their merits & don't really give too much of a stuff as to what other people think & I wish that everyone else would do the same.
It is the mentality I refer to above that has acted as a massive disincentive for me to get the Speedwell car finished as I know that as soon as it breaks cover people are going to start picking it apart.
Mark,
Surely I’m entitled to state that I like cars with comprehensive history without being seen as judging what other enthusiasts enjoy. Not for one moment do I think I’m judging or in competition with anyone, I’m stating an opinion.
There is nothing wrong with re-shells or major refurbishment work and if it is a genuine restoration job all the early and change over paperwork should be in place. The one car I have that was re-shelled has a massive history file and that’s my point.
We always had the choice here in Northern Ireland to retain the GB registration or affix NI registrations. I always retained the original GB registration which makes common sense.
I too have cars that have lost their original registration but all is recorded in the history file. I have a car that was originally South of England registered then when to North America and returned to Northern Ireland. All registrations are recorded and the same car has a huge history file.
We can discuss this to the cows come home, but at the end of the day cars with detailed history sell more easier than an identical car that has little or no history.
As a matter of fact anyone who knows me well, know that I do not like shows where cars are judged as it is my view every car is nice in its own way, perhaps not counting that yellow Clubman estate car on eBay
Get your Speedwell car finished and enjoy it
Alan
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:46 pm
by Nevsmini
Should be on a radford in the near future
Re: WTH??!?! Have you seen this item on ebay.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:07 pm
by WMU 211G
mk1 wrote:...It is the mentality I refer to above that has acted as a massive disincentive for me to get the Speedwell car finished as I know that as soon as it breaks cover people are going to start picking it apart.
That's a crying shame Mark as I'm sure plenty on here would love to see it in the flesh, including me. It's daft really - at Stanford Hall last year no sooner had I parked my car up in front of the MCR stand when two complete strangers came up to me wanting to know if the right hand tank filler neck and cap were fake!