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Some interesting points there Pete / Keith. Thanks for keeping it coming. Look forwards to seeing the article Pete and will be in touch. It would be good to get it on the forum.

Cheers
Dave

it's finding a scanner big enough Dave.

Pete wrote:Seeing as it wasn't used again (as far as we know) I wonder if it went off testing in Wales?

I think I mentioned that possibility earlier on in the thread. There is a photo of an unregistered non-arched 4 lamp bar car testing at Strata Florida with Fall, implied to be 1966. It doesn't seem to be 309 but might be one of the other 3 non-arched 1966 Gp2 cars (Baxter Monte - not orig 4 lamp - and the 2 Swedish cars I can't find photos of).
It's a long time before the identity of 309 emerges again. That might indicate it became (or its ID was used on) a recce car rather than immediately becoming an unregistered test car.

been i while since i have been on here or kept up with the thread on pauls car however i have spoke with paul today and there seems still to be the knives out for this CAR even though its been available for inspection at several events to everyone,just look at the previous post full of maybe,s ,could be,s and buts just look at it just makes me wonder if all the holy than thou cars would stand up to the same inspection. guess i,am barred now eh !

fridgeman wrote: guess i,am barred now eh !

Not from here, we can all see what the car is even if it is 'the elephant in the room' to some.

Re. test cars.

I have put out another request (in France, on a forum several Swedes read...) for photos of the (new) works Minis on the 66 Swedish. They were almost certainly unarched and using 3.5" wheels.

Bill Price refers to a test at Strata Florida in March 66, instigated by the technical side of the factory, who believed the "trumpets" might come out of the hydrolastic units in extreme conditions when using the uprated displacers. I know all about that problem, as I had it happen on my Cooper straight after fitting new Competition displacers...and then carrying 3 passengers before the suspension had settled down much. A front "trumpet" became unseated, sticking out the side, with the suspension still pressurised.
This test car, driven by Fall, did it too - exactly what they expected. (Not sure what the solution was. Maybe the same as I experienced - no further problem ever again once the units were "run in" and no longer brand new - once some slightly better flexibility in the rubber in the hard units was established by use, enough fluid was displaced and the trumpet maintained contact with the displacer).
There is a photo in the Price book of a test car being recovered near a ford. That car is a non-arched car, as you would expect in March 66 (the first arched cars being prepared for the Circuit of Ireland around then). It has the new 4 lamp bar, later type sump guard and an Aley roll over bar (the latter difficult to see but look very closely). It has a Morris badge and some evidence of dirty adhesive residue from competition numbers on the door. There is a photo in Browning's book of what looks like the same car, captioned as 65 but unlikely to be, given the bits fitted to it are all later.
It could be a photo of a later test (but they were using Chobham by later 66 for rough road testing, not Strata Florida). It could be an old 65 unarched car (but with a new 4 lamp bar, latest sumpguard and roll cage? - unlikely?). That leaves one of the 4 new 66 unarched Gp2 cars. None fit exactly.
GRX309D was an Austin in February. No reason the bonnet or badge could not have been changed but why would it have been for a test, particularly with Fall, who normally drove Austins? I cannot make out in either photo of the test car the off centre retaining studs for the headlight protectors that featured on 309 in Feb.
DJB92B, almost certainly a new 66 car for Makinen in Sweden using the old registration (the old 92B had just completed the 65 RAC) was a Morris in Feb 66. It was now being prepared for the Circuit of Ireland, with arches.
GRX310D, A new Morris in Sweden in February for Aaltonen, was out again with him to win the Tulip in April. Makes sense for it to have been the same car. Both 66 Swedish cars retired early with transmission problems and were not thrashed to the finish or bent.
GRX195D, the Baxter car from the 66 Monte, also a Morris, had the old pre-66 Gp2 lamp arrangement (less the central lamp, to comply with the new regs). This could have been the March 66 test car, fitted with all the later bits - 4 lamp bar etc, - but would it have been relegated to a test roll after one event where it received no body damage? the reg no didn't re-appear until much later, on what was probably another new car.

So, an old 65 car with all the latest bits fitted for the test?
GRX195D with the same later bits fitted?
Or GRX309D, a car that took a pasting on the Flowers. Bonnet and boot changed for older items that already had the registration removed and happened to be Morris badged, latest sump guard and roll cage fitted for the test?

Any thoughts? (Did I ask if the found 309 has the four holes in the rear parcel shelf for the back stay of an Aley bar?)

Great information there Keith, and thanks for the continued research. This is a photo of the parcel shelf of Pauls car, taken from inside the boot. Are they the four holes that you mean ? Cannot make out the spec. of the windscreen washers of the test car on Strata Florida.

Would be much wider holes, for quite large bolts (A/F equivalent of M10 or M12?).
Or am I not remembering just how large the two big circular cut outs were on all Minis - and the 4 smaller holes are quite large?

At least it aint been built up from a bootld and a shagged trailor !

Oh did i say that , ah well tuff titties , theres only the people that have authenticated all those other cars that wont accept what it is - Oh did i say that - ah well never mind

Its a great thing to see (and touch) , pity it cant talk or it would probably piss a few people right off

Pad

pad4 wrote:At least it aint been built up from a bootld and a shagged trailor !

Oh did i say that , ah well tuff titties , theres only the people that have authenticated all those other cars that wont accept what it is - Oh did i say that - ah well never mind

Its a great thing to see (and touch) , pity it cant talk or it would probably piss a few people right off

Pad

pad4 wrote:At least it aint been built up from a bootld and a shagged trailor !

Oh did i say that , ah well tuff titties , theres only the people that have authenticated all those other cars that wont accept what it is - Oh did i say that - ah well never mind

Its a great thing to see (and touch) , pity it cant talk or it would probably piss a few people right off

Pad

What like this one....It would need a re spray though.....http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C557798

spoon.450 wrote:Great information there Keith, and thanks for the continued research. This is a photo of the parcel shelf of Pauls car, taken from inside the boot. Are they the four holes that you mean ? Cannot make out the spec. of the windscreen washers of the test car on Strata Florida.

Plenty of holes but not extra holes that would signify an Aley cage has been on there.

Pete wrote:

spoon.450 wrote:Great information there Keith, and thanks for the continued research. This is a photo of the parcel shelf of Pauls car, taken from inside the boot. Are they the four holes that you mean ? Cannot make out the spec. of the windscreen washers of the test car on Strata Florida.

Plenty of holes but not extra holes that would signify an Aley cage has been on there.

So not the car in the Strata Florida photo. I wonder if all the test cars had cages fitted ??
Just for interests sake, I use Strata Florida fairly regularly by motorbike.......couldn't imagine driving a mini there these days !

Found this

I have a feeling it was the only test car to run at Strata Florida with a roll over bar fitted. It just might have been the first works rally Mini to have one. During 66, rough road testing switched to Chobham. Price confirms in his book they obtained a permit for routine visits (rather than having to make a separate application each time). Pre-RAC66 there is the famous photo of Hopkirk helping G.Hill push a car back on at Chobham. Ford were using it too by then (R.Clark instructing J.Clark).
The previous test to the Mar 66 one was the pre-65 RAC test at Strata Florida (with CRX91B? and, it appears from a photo, one other car). No bar.
It was in my mind that a bar was first used on a rally by the works on the 66 Coupe des Alpes - but it wasn't: it was on the 66 RAC. 7 of the 8 works cars on the 66 RAC seem to have had one, complete with padding. The one that didn't was GRX5D - the only one that had other than a standard cam on that rally - and the one that blew the rest of the entry list away, until the famous "short peg" idler gear failure in Kielder (not Yorkshire, as one of the "bibles" states). Neither did Makinen have one on the 66 1000 Lakes (which was faster but admittedly did not have the drops of some RAC stages). Perhaps it was another of his quirks. All works cars seem to have been so-equipped from Monte 67 onwards.
The photo of the Mar 66 test shows no indication of holes for 2 aux lights mounted on the bonnet - which all 65 cars would have had. Of course the bonnet could have been changed for one with the reg no removed. (The reason for that possibly being that the reg no was then on another car....). It seems to be on 4.5" rims, as you would expect by then (3.5 in Gp2 only in Jan/Feb 66, while the new regs were settling down).
What do we know of recce cars around then? DJB92B was an Acropolis 66 recce car. Some were standard cars, particularly for tarmac events, which might have carried the reg nos of "old" rally cars rather than being newly registered? I can recall a standard red/black S used by Liddon (and Easter??) for a pre-67 Monte recce in Dec 66. Its difficult to imagine the plates off GRX309D and GRX195D sitting in a corner until they re-appeared on events much later.

Thanks Smoke...appreciate you researching. We have seen that photo before....possibly posted in another thread when we were initially looking for pics of 309D. 1966 Polish rally, Tony Fall, 970cc. Not 100 percent sure if this is Pauls car or not. Any info. appreciated.
Regards
Dave

I see the new version of this gets referred to as a 'WORKS CAR' - bit ironic really when yours only get to be known as a bloody body shell,





Pad

A very interesting story Pad, thanks for posting. Works car history is always fascinating.

pad4 wrote:I see the new version of this gets referred to as a 'WORKS CAR'.

Any photographs....?

I'd heard the rumours about BJB 77B and took them with a pinch of salt, so that article written by Mr Smith came as a proper surprise. Quite ironic really that this car is being recreated out of a trailer (or a quarter of a discarded bodyshell)when its owner refuses to recognize Paul Bate's CAR as anything other than a discarded bodyshell.
Its no wonder he was a bit cagey when someone asked on the MCR forum thread to see more recent pictures of his car.
It may end up being like so many of these ex-works cars that are around today proporting to be the real thing.
As soon as he's finished his work it will appear out the blue as though its always been around with no as found photo's to back up its originality (apart from the one of the trailer).
Cheers Martin