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Great book as was the first. There needs to be a third edition devoted entirely to where are they now. Believe me chaps as we all get older the first part of their history will start to disappear and then the half truths and outright lies will take over completely. I know from my interest in other more modern cars how something gets half researched by a journalist who gets some duff information puts it in a magazine or a book and hey presto there is the truth for ever! Sorry I ought to shut up. Cheers. Brian

The list of the cars showing chassis and engine numbers is missing from the second edition ........

I noticed that Dave and I wondered why.....
You also have to remember 2nd edition is about to be 20 years old.
Is it not amazing that we are talking about a seven year period of history and therefore it is not surprising that very little exists recording the time. The real shame is that no one appeared to be that interested at the time and records were either not kept or were destroyed. It is good that Peter Browing put into print his memories and experiences and maybe we should be grateful for what has survived. Cheers. Brian

VKA305H wrote:Great book as was the first. There needs to be a third edition devoted entirely to where are they now. Believe me chaps as we all get older the first part of their history will start to disappear and then the half truths and outright lies will take over completely. I know from my interest in other more modern cars how something gets half researched by a journalist who gets some duff information puts it in a magazine or a book and hey presto there is the truth for ever! Sorry I ought to shut up. Cheers. Brian

Imagine the forum discussions which would follow publication.

and the lawyers fees........

Joking apart, much of the info these days is available on-line rather than in print, so I'd imagine getting a publishers interest would be harder than ever. Is it better that a non-journalist commits things to fact than anyone else though?

Al

VKA305H wrote:I noticed that Dave and I wondered why.....
You also have to remember 2nd edition is about to be 20 years old.
Is it not amazing that we are talking about a seven year period of history and therefore it is not surprising that very little exists recording the time. The real shame is that no one appeared to be that interested at the time and records were either not kept or were destroyed. It is good that Peter Browing put into print his memories and experiences and maybe we should be grateful for what has survived. Cheers. Brian

I also wondered why Brian....and couldn't help thinking that Peter Brownings text in the second edition had been ' influenced ' by other people / organisations. As you say, it is good, and we should be grateful that these histories have been recorded in some fantastic books by the people who were there, Peter Browning, Bill Price, Brian Moylan......

From time to time, on this or other forums the history of the Works Minis is re-examined. Registration numbers are found o have many lives and cars, quite different cars, are found to have had the same registration number. In some cases many different cars have worn a particular number.

I own the car that came to Australia as LRX 829E and my friend owns the car that came as LRX 828E. The further we dig and investigate registrations and chassis, and car numbers the more puzzling matters become.

Guy has made a compelling case for now owning the car that first carried the registration LRX 829E and which did at least two European rallies under that registration. It appears it then carried a different registration and ultimately found its way in to Guy's hands.

Many have held that the LRX 829E that came to Australia was in fact a new car. The theory, a sound one, was why would BMC send a used car to Australia. I had always wondered why not? They were expensive to build and were only going to be thrashed to within an inch of there lives in a very rough Southern Cross Rally.

Slowly but surely records and information has been gathered and I believe the reality is that the two cars sent to Australia and carrying the registrations LRX 828E and 829E were I fact two cars that had been used previously in European rallies. The earlier registrations may be very close to those on arrival. I fact the age of the class suggests very similar build dates.

A letter from BMC Australia to the eventual purchaser of my car, LRX 829E when it arrived, refers to the fact that it had been used in Europe as both a rally car and rekey car. Registration details when the cars were registered in Australia on arrival suggest that 829E may have in fact first carried a Works' registration that is now carried by another car.

An examination of cars, old photos and histories shows how it would be quite possible for Works' cars to first carry one registration and later carry another. The car then leaves Abington with a registration which was not its original or more likely re-registered with a different registration and therefore takes on a new life.

The full story of all the cars could only ever be told by knowing all the cars acquired by Abington, the chassis numbers and the same numbers for all that left or were written off. Probably an impossible task.

I am happy with what I know about my car. Was it always LRX 829E, possibly not. Was it a used car when it arrived in Australia, definitely yes. Was it built at Abington, definitely yes. Is it the original body, yes thanks to a very talented panel beater. Was it driven by Makinen, Hopkirk and others, yes. Does any of this really matter, probably not.

It is quite a nice car to drive notwithstanding the high gearing, full race camshaft and the manner in which the sump guard is secured to the sub frame and gearbox. I intend to enjoy it and ponder what I know it did do in its earlier life.

I have no doubts that there are more cars than the coveted registration numbers that were known to have competed. It is the only sensible conclusion. But, even then, there are very few left and very few in a reasonable condition.

Enjoy them for what they are. Great fun.

Very good point Syd

Syd wrote:From time to time, on this or other forums the history of the Works Minis is re-examined. Registration numbers are found o have many lives and cars, quite different cars, are found to have had the same registration number. In some cases many different cars have worn a particular number.
Snip.....

The full story of all the cars could only ever be told by knowing all the cars acquired by Abington, the chassis numbers and the same numbers for all that left or were written off. Probably an impossible task.
Snip....

I have no doubts that there are more cars than the coveted registration numbers that were known to have competed. It is the only sensible conclusion. But, even then, there are very few left and very few in a reasonable condition.

Enjoy them for what they are. Great fun.

It has been stated a few times that Comps used new base Cooper S cars to build the new/replacement race/rally cars from and that this was because the budget only stretched to have a certain number of registered competition units.

As one of the very first things that is attached to a body in any production facility in the world is the chassis/VIN all the cars supplied to Abingdon would have a chassis number. That being said as a heritage certificate can be produced for a chassis number and from there a distributor or dealer defined, would it not be therefore possible (if you had the time and patience) to run through the chassis numbers produced and see which ones went to Abingdon? The next question is what then happened to the chassis number that was in effect discarded when the new production car was used to rebuild a damaged or worn out competition unit.

I would guess that not every worn out and damaged unit was rebuilt from a new car, possibly some were just body shells. I would think though that the majority were complete donors as it is much easier to order one car than 4000 parts, especially if you needed it quickly to replace a damaged one. Much easier to transport as well....

I agree with the last statement entirely, it is a terrible shame that so many historic motor sports cars and motorcycles sit in garages or museums doing nothing.

Thanks for the post Syd, very informative. It goes back to the "degrees of works car" One with the original body, original engine and original works number has to be the ultimate.

Going back to Al's point I am not sure if a journalist should write a book but certainly an enthusiast preferably with knowledge of the time should gather information. Don't worry I am not volunteering it would be a very difficult if not nigh on impossible task to get it right. It does not stop people on forums like this getting the information together on individual cars though.

Cheers

Brian

Thanks for your post Syd, and welcome to the forum. Some valid points. When it comes to Works Minis, I think that all anyone can HONESTLY hope to say is......
THIS CAR did THIS / THESE EVENTS using THIS / THESE IDENTITIES. I think that's my take on it ??
Can we see some photos of your LRX 829E and your mates LRX 828E cars please Syd ?

Regards
Dave

This is a great thread. Syd, thanks for your post - I greatly enjoyed reading it.

Really this thread is relevant to a potentially large number of race and rally cars that were used in competition from that time.

I would guess that not every worn out and damaged unit was rebuilt from a new car, possibly some were just body shells. I would think though that the majority were complete donors as it is much easier to order one car than 4000 parts, especially if you needed it quickly to replace a damaged one. Much easier to transport as well....

Well said!

I know for a fact that 129 LNP was re-shelled with what likely was a brand new donor car sent to Appleyards, which was stripped out and the key "S" bits (including the chassis number) inserted in the appropriate areas, presumably to make it legal for competing in the regulations of the day. As you say, using period documentation, build dates, and photos, the evidence that the car did (or did not) compete at certain events was proven. The new re-shelled version of 129 LNP preformed double duty as a race car and a rally car with the original owner, so that is significant, at least to me. After the 1965 racing season it was purchased by Fred Opert Racing in New York, and raced in the US by at least three owners until the early 1990's. Is it the original 1963 S shell it started out with? No. What happened to the original shell? Unknown. Does it really matter? No! 50+ years later, the car continues to race, as it should be.

.....it is a terrible shame that so many historic motor sports cars and motorcycles sit in garages or museums doing nothing.

Hear, hear! A museum is like a cemetery - where great cars go to die....

Great discussion....
" What happened to the original shell ? Unknown. Does it really matter ? ".........
What ' if ' the original shell turned up, complete with body number and many original parts ( as a complete donor car was used to replace it )..........that would be the original 129 LNP that did X amount of events wouldn't it, and deserving recognition ?
I'm just comparing it to Guy's LRX 829E, Paul's GRX 309D etc.

spoon.450 wrote:Great discussion....
" What happened to the original shell ? Unknown. Does it really matter ? ".........
What ' if ' the original shell turned up, complete with body number and many original parts ( as a complete donor car was used to replace it )..........that would be the original 129 LNP that did X amount of events wouldn't it, and deserving recognition ?
I'm just comparing it to Guy's LRX 829E, Paul's GRX 309D etc.

I agree....absolutely fair comparison. If the original body shell of 129 LNP exists and can be proven, it is the ORIGINAL body. That "body" also has significant competition history previous to the estimated re-shell date in August 1964 or later. The Morris shell was built on July 28th and dispatched to Appleyards August 4th. So 129 LNP was re-shelled sometime after that build date obviously, and before the 1965 Monte. In fact, any period photos of the car in Surf Blue are of the original shell, as the re-shell was painted Arden blue right away, it was never painted Surf Blue.

Personally, if the original shell was proven to exist, I would welcome it!

And if the original body for 129 LNP is ever found, I would like to buy it. Then I could race the original and the re-shell! Now wouldn't that confuse people

...one of the very first things that is attached to a body in any production facility in the world is the chassis/VIN...

Not at Longbridge on the Mini production line in the 1960's.

all the cars supplied to Abingdon would have a chassis number.

Draw your own conclusion from "Not at Longbridge on the Mini production line in the 1960's"

would it not be therefore possible (if you had the time and patience) to run through the chassis numbers produced and see which ones went to Abingdon?

Been there, done that for the 1071's. Ten 1071 S's were registered by the BMC Comps. Department. Guess how many 1071 S's were despatched there

Do not forget that all of this took place during the 1960's when things were rather more relaxed.

DISCLAIMER

A warning for those of you who are clearly exhibiting OCD symptoms.
I accept no responsibility should the following question and image make you feel queasy or make your head explode. You should consult a psychologist or other qualified health professional for advice on your specific problem and the best form of treatment for you.

So which car did this event? Was it AJB 33B or DJB 92B?

It goes back to the "degrees of works car" One with the original body, original engine and original works number has to be the ultimate.

That would that give a very short short list of approximately .....none?

Going back to Al's point I am not sure if a journalist should write a book but certainly an enthusiast preferably with knowledge of the time should gather information. Don't worry I am not volunteering it would be a very difficult if not nigh on impossible task to get it right.

A book is currently being written - not by a journalist or regular classic car book hack.

Great, really glad to hear about the book, I will look forward to that. Any idea when? My previous point is that I once helped a journalist write a book about a specific make of car, I gathered together shedloads of information for him in the hope that he would print the facts as this book would be looked upon as the oracle for the future. It didnt quite happen that way in the end. Say no more....
Cheers Brian

Simon776 wrote:Do not forget that all of this took place during the 1960's when things were rather more relaxed.

DISCLAIMER

A warning for those of you who are clearly exhibiting OCD symptoms.
I accept no responsibility should the following question and image make you feel queasy or make your head explode. You should consult a psychologist or other qualified health professional for advice on your specific problem and the best form of treatment for you.

So which car did this event? Was it AJB 33B or DJB 92B?

DJB AJB Build sheet.jpg

I have a build sheet for GRX5D to run as EBL56C...

OCD Symptoms !.........
I was beginning to wonder about myself ..
It's all interesting discussion though isn't it ?......and that's what forums are about aren't they ??
If people have the information, why not share it, what is there to hide ???