1964 Cobra loses historic status.....

[Pete]

I would of thought that the owner would of had the common sense to have checked the cars history and provinance before shelling out all that money???? Complete muppet!

That's very easy to say but there's plenty of examples of Minis that sold for up to six figures in the last few years that look totally genuine and authenticated, even displayed by a so called approved club! There's even magazine articles on some of these cars written by respected (??) authorities on the subject that are hugely misleading, so whether we think this fella's a silly old tw@t with more money than sense or not the person he should really be suing is the guy that built it or that sold it to him but even then would he be able to prove anything?

As has already been pointed out though, it was a fraction of the price of genuine body so I suspect he knew what he was buying which leads me to think the seller knew what he was selling!!

[steve1071]

I can’t believe the solicitors acting for this chap haven’t dragged the seller and authenticator of the car as 2nd / 3rd defendants. Like others have said I suspect there’s a fair bit more to the story and the judgement will make interesting reading.

[Supersonic]

I would of thought that the owner would of had the common sense to have checked the cars history and provinance before shelling out all that money???? Complete muppet!

That's very easy to say but there's plenty of examples of Minis that sold for up to six figures in the last few years that look totally genuine and authenticated, even displayed by a so called approved club! There's even magazine articles on some of these cars written by respected (??) authorities on the subject that are hugely misleading, so whether we think this fella's a silly old tw@t with more money than sense or not the person he should really be suing is the guy that built it or that sold it to him but even then would he be able to prove anything?

As has already been pointed out though, it was a fraction of the price of genuine body so I suspect he knew what he was buying which leads me to think the seller knew what he was selling!!

Pete, that is a very good point you make about Minis that have been sold for up to six figures in the last few years. Most of these cars did look totally genuine and got classed as authentic and viewed legitimate because they were approved by a well known club who featured them in their magazine articles written by their so called experts. However, I don’t for one moment believe these cars are viewed as 100% above-board anymore given that some members of this same club have pulled more stunts than Evel Knievel ever did

Alan

[tintoptom]

Looks to me as if the buyer and seller both knew the truth (250k for a genuine 64 cobra??). The buyer has then been rumbled and can't / is reluctant to sue the seller because they both knew the truth of it. He's annoyed that the DVLA have rumbled him and is trying to hit back. As has been said - that is a total waste of time and money.

[davidscothorn]

I guess the DVLA's defence will rely on the logbook recording 'Declared manufactured in 1964'

https://waterlooclassics.com/august-2015/

[spoon.450]

It would be interesting to trace back the history of both the present vehicle, and the currently attached identity, to see where they part and both originate......if you know what I mean...

[Leadfoot1]

I would think that both seller and buyer know exactly what this car is. There were very few Cobras made and they are all very well documented. This car seems to me to have been made using an un used chassis number and completed in 2002 (maybe an uncompleted car) The DVLA then issued an age related plate and historic status, as with hundreds of other cars as they had no independent means of verifying a cars aunthenticity.
The DVLA are now aware that there are a lot of “historic” cars that are not what they appear to be,and slowly but surely these cars will be investigated and reclassified and possibly issued with the dreaded Q plate. How this car came to the attention of the DVLA would be nice to know,did someone with a grudge tip them off?
Do we know if a Q plate has been issued?

[HPP365C]

The problem for DVLA is the overall scale of the fraud

People were fudging the age of cars in 1927 to get entry for the first re-enactment of the Emancipation Run and it has gone of from there.

Once DVLA understood the scale they really would have preferred the put a lid on it and simply start from square one at that point and let all the sleeping dogs lie - a well known Federation that are supposed to represent the views of everyone then stepped in and demanded that all the bad cars/bikes were dealt with - in an ideal world great but an impossible task.

I would be very interested to hear of a car which DVLA have reclassified to a Q from historic - as yet I have not found one unless this is what they did with this Cobra. I suspect it was forced to be SVA'd or whatever and now has a 2002 plate

In this case the notion that DVLA owed this Cobra owner a 'duty of care' as he claims is ridiculous

[Leadfoot1]

I think there is a cut off date and it is 1998,exactly what this means in practice I’m not sure.If there is evidence that fraud has been committed is there a cut off date. I don’t think cars built from a selection of new and second hand parts should get free road tax,but I don’t think Q plates are appropriate either,I think these cars shoul be allowed to have an early reg.no.put on them.A Q plate is for life isn’t it?

[GrahamWRobinson]

I’m not suggesting that it is of their own making, but however you look at it the DVLA have a problem on their hands. Across the board and involving all sorts of makes there must be loads of vehicles on their system that now have previously issued registration numbers that are of concern. Those registrations are now being questioned both by the DVLA itself and the likes of enthusiasts who have detected that something is amiss. What’s the answer? It has been suggested on here that a Q plates should replace the registration number issued if the DVLA now has grave doubts about a vehicle’s provenance. That’s OK in theory but does the DVLA really have the resources to investigate all the vehicles that would seem to fall into that category?

As an alternative, and it would still be a mammoth task for the DVLA even then, is that where there remains doubt over the number issued it has to be underlined on the plate displayed. For example ‘123 ABC’ would become ‘123 ABC’. The same could be shown on the V5 or even only on the V5. If the vehicle is up for sale then by inspecting the V5 and/or checking online any prospective buyer can see for themselves that there is now some doubt over the registration number. If in due course the owner can prove without doubt that an underlined number should not have been issued the underlining is simply removed from the plate and from the V5.

Here’s an example as how a number plate could look.

Number plate idea.JPG

Doing it this way might could be a better alternative to a Q plate as well as being easier to administer.

Graham

[rich@minispares.com]

but people would simply run a normal plate and run the tiny risk of been caught and having to pay the fine for incorrect display.

a complete waste of time.

I would say that having a 'normal' age related plate and a chassis number that makes it clear that its a 'reconstituted classic', with a note of the front of the V5 would be a better solution.

that way the car will never have the value of an original car, but can still be used, bought and sold

[GrahamWRobinson]

but people would simply run a normal plate and run the tiny risk of been caught and having to pay the fine for incorrect display. GR - Who said anything about paying a fine? If they attempted to stick two fingers up at the DVLA then the DVLA could simply take the number away and issue another very different one, maybe even a Q plate. With that hanging over their head would the owner still wish to flout the rules? As we have read so many times before no-one 'owns' a number, all they have is the right to display a number issued to them by the DVLA

a complete waste of time. GR - Indeed much time has already been wasted already by many people on the subject!

I would say that having a 'normal' age related plate and a chassis number that makes it clear that its a 'reconstituted classic', with a note of the front of the V5 would be a better solution. GR - I don't disagree with the idea but how would you deal with numbers reissued to vehicles of historic importance? Issue them numbers, other than being age related, that have no connection whatsoever with the vehicle that has been brought back to life, or however you want to describe it?

that way the car will never have the value of an original car, but can still be used, bought and sold GR - On that point I agree.

Maybe the real answer is simply for the DVLA to amend the V5 to indicate the situation? After all the V5 shows a timeline of previous owners so why not extend that idea to show registration number history and any queries/disputes?

Graham

[Peter Laidler]

We're getting into severe mission creep here I feel....... The DVLA in relation to vehicles are basically a tax collecting agency and the 'historic' part of that is simply that certain cars deemed 'historic' don't pay tax. They also have a statutory duty (yes, they do.....) to keep their vehicle database up to date so that the cops and rip-off parking merchants can track you and your vehicle down. And they can only do that given the information supplied. They have absolutely no interest whether the car is a worthless 'historic' Stasi Trabant or a priceless historic Maharaja Joshi Roller. It's just a historic VED-free vehicle

In the case of the Cobra, they're between a rock and a hard place. It's not a duty of care as such that is the issue here. It's the fact that the information that they or any other dept or agency provide should be correct. I suspect that this or a similar case was the precursor to them not revealing anything now. A good example being previous keepers.......

I've dealt with them albeit many, many years ago. Best left unsaid

[HPP365C]

I think the problem is way too big to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Let's say you started with Land Rovers - firstly you have the reconstructed ones and then you have the ones shuffled backwards into tax exemption and lastly you have the RR ones where they are sitting on modern chassis and running gear. There will be thousands of those alone.

DVLA as I said tried to strike a deal with the first club under the spotlight (who were issuing their own system of chassis numbers) that the process stopped then and there. All the cars previously given status would be honoured - the club was happy, a lot of owners were relieved and the DVLA retained their honour and could take control. I'm told the FBHVC blocked that plan.

The Cobra man knew the score - many of the moody owners do too. Some are very wealthy and stand to lose millions and DVLA could if they 'sort' one of those cars get in front of some high profile barristers - they don't want that.

I don't know the answer but I do not believe a case by case review is even possible.

[rich@minispares.com]

but people would simply run a normal plate and run the tiny risk of been caught and having to pay the fine for incorrect display. GR - Who said anything about paying a fine? If they attempted to stick two fingers up at the DVLA then the DVLA could simply take the number away and issue another very different one, maybe even a Q plate. With that hanging over their head would the owner still wish to flout the rules? As we have read so many times before no-one 'owns' a number, all they have is the right to display a number issued to them by the DVLA

a complete waste of time. GR - Indeed much time has already been wasted already by many people on the subject!

I would say that having a 'normal' age related plate and a chassis number that makes it clear that its a 'reconstituted classic', with a note of the front of the V5 would be a better solution. GR - I don't disagree with the idea but how would you deal with numbers reissued to vehicles of historic importance? Issue them numbers, other than being age related, that have no connection whatsoever with the vehicle that has been brought back to life, or however you want to describe it?

that way the car will never have the value of an original car, but can still be used, bought and sold GR - On that point I agree.

Maybe the real answer is simply for the DVLA to amend the V5 to indicate the situation? After all the V5 shows a timeline of previous owners so why not extend that idea to show registration number history and any queries/disputes?

Graham

the fine for incorrect display is tiny, doesnt even get points, so its not really much of a deterent

the problem with 'old' chassis numbers and registrations is that its the 'ownership' of these that make the cars worth what they are, and its the histories that come part and parcel of these that make some of these cars worth a significant amount of money

I think the DVLA have got so sick of people flouting the rules (and for getting stick about been unable to police the whole mess) that they have decided to take a stand

at the end of the day, this cobra appears to be nothing more than a modern kit car that's had a unused chassis number stuck on it, I'm no expert on cobra values, but suspect that the value of a nice modern 'kit car' cobra is probably £20,000, where as a proper one must be 1/4 million plus I guess?

[rich@minispares.com]

We're getting into severe mission creep here I feel....... The DVLA in relation to vehicles are basically a tax collecting agency and the 'historic' part of that is simply that certain cars deemed 'historic' don't pay tax. They also have a statutory duty (yes, they do.....) to keep their vehicle database up to date so that the cops and rip-off parking merchants can track you and your vehicle down. And they can only do that given the information supplied. They have absolutely no interest whether the car is a worthless 'historic' Stasi Trabant or a priceless historic Maharaja Joshi Roller. It's just a historic VED-free vehicle

In the case of the Cobra, they're between a rock and a hard place. It's not a duty of care as such that is the issue here. It's the fact that the information that they or any other dept or agency provide should be correct. I suspect that this or a similar case was the precursor to them not revealing anything now. A good example being previous keepers.......

I've dealt with them albeit many, many years ago. Best left unsaid

i bet the DVLA are getting really pissed of with historic cars, they dont 'earn' any money from them, but they must cause them the biggest amount of headaches ever!

[Hipwell]

i bet the DVLA are getting really pissed of with historic cars, they dont 'earn' any money from them, but they must cause them the biggest amount of headaches ever!

This. Funny how people put so much value just on the piece of paper that a V5 is.

[HPP365C]

[quote="rich@minispares.com"]I think the DVLA have got so sick of people flouting the rules (and for getting stick about been unable to police the whole mess) that they have decided to take a stand
[quote]

I know they would like the problem to go away - it is too big for them to handle.

Interesting thread on PH a few weeks back posted by some whiney woman that her beloved MGA was to lose it's original number and be allocated an age related one. The car had been restored twenty years ago using another unknown chassis and MGB running gear which due to an insurance valuation had all now come out into the open. She was creating merry hell with the DVLA appeal system and looking for the masses to support her in keeping a number for a car that no longer existed and which used different running gear. She was somewhat surprised to be told by everyone she was bloody lucky to be being offered age related/ historic and should grab it with both hands.

The new allocation of age related numbers is handled in it's entirety by two people at Swansea.

[HPP365C]

i bet the DVLA are getting really pissed of with historic cars, they dont 'earn' any money from them, but they must cause them the biggest amount of headaches ever!

This. Funny how people put so much value just on the piece of paper that a V5 is.

Simply because they have the ability to transform the value of a historic car.

You only have to look at the prices V5s make on ebay - this is something the DVLA could and should sort out as they are invariably identifiable in one way or another

[rich@minispares.com]

i bet the DVLA are getting really pissed of with historic cars, they dont 'earn' any money from them, but they must cause them the biggest amount of headaches ever!

This. Funny how people put so much value just on the piece of paper that a V5 is.

well, without it the vehicle is virtually worthless.............