mk1-forum.net

Turbo88 wrote:

Pete wrote:I'm not sure the gathering of info on famous works Minis is just about informing any potential buyer, they very rarely ever come up for sale anyway. Quite a few marques have chassis data bases on competition cars, especially single seaters and sports cars but maybe it's because they're not so easy to fabricate?? Not that faking is exclusive to famous Minis, as I'm sure we all know. I don't see anything wrong with trying to build a history timeline for the works cars but I wish 'em good luck cos it seems to be a subject alot do not want to talk about.

Pete's honest comments ring so true and should be used as a yardstick for assessment when viewing old Minis by people my age. My opinion is less than 10% of old Minis are original. When I say old Minis, I mean 1959 to 1971

Certainly true to say that the originality of works Minis 50 years down the line only reflects that of say a roadgoing Mk1 S, this is true. However, I think the 'lesser' desirable (and less competed/damaged/stolen) small bore early Minis do tend to have survived in a much more original state. Having a roadcar built from 5% of it's original parts, or building one from an old logbook and a pile of collected parts does go on and always has, I think the reason the works cars come in for so much scrutinee is probably due to their high profile so when one appears from nowhere fully restored (don't they usually??) and is talked about in such glowing terms in the press, at Goodwood or by the clubs or whatever it usually begs the question..where the f*ck did that come from?? And if you've got well known experts building them by slapping logbooks on donor cars (plenty of examples) cos the original car got scrapped years ago it then all starts to look very hooky indeed, especially when an original turns up that's already been faked!!

Pete wrote:

Turbo88 wrote:

Pete wrote:I'm not sure the gathering of info on famous works Minis is just about informing any potential buyer, they very rarely ever come up for sale anyway. Quite a few marques have chassis data bases on competition cars, especially single seaters and sports cars but maybe it's because they're not so easy to fabricate?? Not that faking is exclusive to famous Minis, as I'm sure we all know. I don't see anything wrong with trying to build a history timeline for the works cars but I wish 'em good luck cos it seems to be a subject alot do not want to talk about.

Pete's honest comments ring so true and should be used as a yardstick for assessment when viewing old Minis by people my age. My opinion is less than 10% of old Minis are original. When I say old Minis, I mean 1959 to 1971

Certainly true to say that the originality of works Minis 50 years down the line only reflects that of say a roadgoing Mk1 S, this is true. However, I think the 'lesser' desirable (and less competed/damaged/stolen) small bore early Minis do tend to have survived in a much more original state. Having a roadcar built from 5% of it's original parts, or building one from an old logbook and a pile of collected parts does go on and always has, I think the reason the works cars come in for so much scrutinee is probably due to their high profile so when one appears from nowhere fully restored (don't they usually??) and is talked about in such glowing terms in the press, at Goodwood or by the clubs or whatever it usually begs the question..where the f*ck did that come from?? And if you've got well known experts building them by slapping logbooks on donor cars (plenty of examples) cos the original car got scrapped years ago it then all starts to look very hooky indeed, especially when an original turns up that's already been faked!!

I could accept a car with an ex-works registration if the owner admitted it was 100% a rebuilt replica. Where it gets dishonest is when bigwig people and their mates believe there own bullshit and attempt to fool younger people like myself that what I’m looking at is the real deal. I will never be in the market for an ex-works car but if I was there is one club I would steer clear of at all costs which is sad

Lets look at this in a different way, a bit of a curve ball here :

Which works cars are still in a works shell ?

33EJB
AJB44B
LBL6D
Ronnies LBL66D
Pauls GRX309D


any more, that are defo in a works built shell ?

How about... shout me down if you want... defining ex works minis in four categories.

Gold - a car with original engine, body and "works" parts bolted to it and works number plate

Silver -a car with three of the above

Bronze - a car with two of the above

Any car with just one of the above would be an associate or something I can't think of a suitable name.

Thus a Gold car would be as it left the factory and I cannot imagine there are many of them.

Good fun this isn't it?

Cheers

Brian

billycooper wrote:Lets look at this in a different way, a bit of a curve ball here :

Which works cars are still in a works shell ?

33EJB
AJB44B
LBL6D
Ronnies LBL66D
Pauls GRX309D


any more, that are defo in a works built shell ?

Bernie's AJB66B.

YMO 885J, YMO 886J

VKA305H wrote:How about... shout me down if you want... defining ex works minis in four categories.

Gold - a car with original engine, body and "works" parts bolted to it and works number plate

Silver -a car with three of the above

Bronze - a car with two of the above

Any car with just one of the above would be an associate or something I can't think of a suitable name.

Thus a Gold car would be as it left the factory and I cannot imagine there are many of them.

Good fun this isn't it?

Cheers

Brian

That's a fantastic idea Brian...and good fun !
It has been suggested before if I remember correctly....starting with ' top drawer cars'...
BUT unfortunately it relies on HONESTY....and ...TRUTHFULNESS.....

Good luck with your suggestion

Dave

SMOKE GREY wrote:

billycooper wrote:Lets look at this in a different way, a bit of a curve ball here :

Which works cars are still in a works shell ?

33EJB
AJB44B
LBL6D
Ronnies LBL66D
Pauls GRX309D


any more, that are defo in a works built shell ?

Bernie's AJB66B.

Yep, Bernies of course, come on any more then ?

BJB77B

LRX828E and LRX829E (in Australia), I would put them into Gold or Silver depending on how picky you are about the BMC Australia add ins.

Added a picture of the two cars in Melbourne.

Edited to correct the registrations... Need to coordinate eyes and fingers better.

I always liked GRX 195D, and remember being told how the bonnet is still out of shape from Timo's 1000 Lakes. Until I spotted the badges were wrongly positioned on it, ie it's not the same bonnet It's the little things that often give it away and like I discovered when I realised the psychedelic Roller at the NEC wasn't Lennon's it's just abit deflating!

I doubt many of us would expect an old rally car to be in their original shell but when they've had three or four, some of em Mk3 or Clubman you just think well how many of those Mk1 parts fitted a Mk3? Not that many really!

So OK not many still original but another list you could make is a "Where The F*ck Did That Come From" list of cars that appeared only once "restored" wiith no backstory. Now that would be quite some list. My favoutite one was the white black Mk2 S historic rally car that John Kelly offered me some years back, sadly the owner had passed away just before it was completely finished. The next time I saw it it had URX 550G on the bonnet!

You could say it's a scenario that's mirrored by the appearance of restored roadgoing Ss in a similar way, and there's not too much fuss about those. Maybe it's because their owners aren't making grand claims about them , or sitting famous rally drivers in them and convincing them they're sitting back in the seat of the same car. I remember seeing GRX 309D (the alledged RAC car) with a history display board next to it explaining all the rallies it had been on and just thought what a load of bollox. A very nicely built car, who could say it wasn't? But pull the other one! If it said it was a replica of.... we'd all have said what a great car.

My pal Steve built a great Mk2 works replica, had some great fun in that car, Whizzo took me round Chumly in at full pelt once and when we stopped and I'd picked myself up off the floor he said he thought it looked and even smelled just like the real thing. At no point though was my pal temped to try and put a works number on it or pretend it was something it wasn't cos like me he thinks that's just taking the p*ss.

You could go round in circles, and we do, with this discussion. I saw that ex Stirling Moss DBR1 get front and rear ended at Combe a couple of years ago and thought I wonder how much of that will be original when it's repaired or how many times that's happened since the 50s? Well the answer will be not much and probably quite a few times but at least it started as a real car and not a V5 stuck to a completely different donor. ( I think!! )

Pete,
I don't usually reply to these forum posts.
But GRX195D Really! I draw the line when such things are put up as fact!

I first viewed the car in 1984 when it belonged to John Poynter.

I have studied these cars for 35 years, and I would point out that in my humble opinion, apart from the seats and Speedo, and belts GRX195D
is the best, and most complete original Works car that I have ever seen, and is unrestored.
I would go so far as to say that it is better than most in Gaydon, and I would give my right arm for it.

The bonnet is definitely the one bent on the 1000 lakes, and the carpets are burnt where Timo was a chain smoker at the time.
It is not the original GRX195D. as there were several before it, so it is an Abingdon reshell.
But it is fabulous.
Sadly it now resides in Italy, and us mortals are unlikely to see it again.
This forum talks about truth and falshoods from owners, but surely such a car deserves better from you
Guy.
Beaulieu Mini day 1984

Smithmaps wrote:
This forum talks about truth and falshoods from owners, but surely such a car deserves better from you
Guy.

I was only talking about the bonnet Guy, I share your love of that car, spent alot of time around it in the 90s. I just noticed the S badge looked wonky and that takes some doing on an original. I'll find a pic to illustrate. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong however!

Might have had a few beers but the S looks off centre.



I've got a contempory high res I'll look for to compare. Always happy to be corrected but I thought it signified a replacement bonnet, no biggy either way as the car's amazing!

Well now you can buy "one" of the actual Works Mudflaps from this car.. see ebay no 282477748730.
.. hurry up it will not be re-listed if it does not sell .

Pete wrote:
You could go round in circles, and we do, with this discussion. I saw that ex Stirling Moss DBR1 get front and rear ended at Combe a couple of years ago and thought I wonder how much of that will be original when it's repaired or how many times that's happened since the 50s? Well the answer will be not much and probably quite a few times but at least it started as a real car and not a V5 stuck to a completely different donor. ( I think!! )

My wife and I had the pleasure of sharing our breakfast table with Rex Woodgate and his wife on the Sunday morning following that crash, and whilst he was mildly p------d off, his enthusiasm for the car, and it's authenticity over the reconstruction was paramount, having said that, he could only work with what was left, as you say Pete, at least it has a very traceable history and it will be exactly what it is, ie, a 60+ year old hard raced, constantly updated & repaired sports car. It was a very sad sight coming into the paddock on the back of the truck, I have no idea how the re build went but I'm sure Rex and his team would as always do justice to the task.

Ian.

I think Beer is one of the biggest issues with this forum.

Be assured, a slightly wonky badge, possibly run over, or lost and replaced with a cheap one, does not make the best and most original car somehow another of your fakes!

The bonnet, and all the sticky letters is sooo Abingdon, and sooo hard to replicate in that way.

Have you tried AA Pete?

I seem to recall that the question of the position of the S on the GRX 195D bonnet has come up before. Whilst it does at first glance appear to be off centre, having looked at the photo again I wonder if it not the S that is wrong but the main badge itself? Line the S and the main badge up with the centre moulding of the bonnet and you'll see what I mean.

Graham

One comforting thing is that GRX195D is the real deal, was lucky enough to sit in the car when Gerry Braithwaite owned it, and also lucky enough to sit in Bernie's AJB66B.

looks like we are running out of other works cars still in Abingdon shells mind !, obviously there is Guys LRX as well (again a similar situation to Pauls 309D, but still Abingdon shells, lets not get hung up on them though please.

what about our Irish brothers ?, must be a genuine Abingdon shell Works car over there ?

Isn't JBL 493D, the Makinen car now owned by BMW ? one of the most original ???