JMO 969D

[Supersonic]

Christ only 99%

[Pete]

Alan, I don't think there would be much commotion if they were worth nothing.

I don't think there'd be much commotion either if when a real one is actually discovered it's not ushered away because someone's already (falsely) claimed the bloody number plate!

When I was in the process of building this :



..someone approached me and suggested I could go for one of the '68 Vita 'KDK' logbooks for it. I understood that in the late 80s and 90's it was seemingly a piece of cake to do but I wasn't interested in building a fake. Just as well, seeing as two of those cars surfaced some years later! I've often heard it said that better to have a works car in existence, being used, admired and enjoyed than not to have it around at all. I tend to disagree, I think so many spurious cars that appeared overnight claiming to be 'ex works' in the 90s that lacked any backstory or credibility whatsoever just bring disrepute to the rest! Better to have a few honest cars (in reshelled form or not) than a sea of replicas wearing original Comps dept plates! Or just some good honest replicas!

The whole idea of a 'genuine works car', let alone a genuine anything else car, is always going to be a complex one just like the idea of a genuine S that's had three shells, two engines and a brand new everything else but when you add the way Comps built and swapped cars around into the mix it becomes really complicated! The cars themselves and their provenance (or lack of) do tend to do the talking I think, people are free to make of them whatever they want but it's fair to say there's been a few built and sold for huge sums of money and considerable profit that should never have passed the V5 application but the clubs aren't really to blame the people that build them are!

I'm certainly no expert and obviously quite a few works cars do have history back to Abingdon but that auction description for JMO (which is where this thread started) is fairly laughable!

[mk1]

Christ only 99%

When I originally wrote what I did, I put 99.9% but I changed it as I didn't want to look too pessimistic.

I agree with Pete, the worst thing about out & out fakes is that they have muddied the water when genuine cars do come to light. Everyone's default setting is "Oh no, not another fake". This devalues (not in money terms) the whole lot of them in a lot of people eyes.

The other reason that 3rd parties have to be a little circumspect when discussing this issue is that one day, sooner or later someone will find themselves in court having accused a "Very valuable Works Car" of being a fake & being sued for devaluing some clowns prized investment. It may sound unlikely now, but you just watch, it will happen one day.

M

[Supersonic]

Christ only 99%

When I originally wrote what I did, I put 99.9% but I changed it as I didn't want to look too pessimistic.

I agree with Pete, the worst thing about out & out fakes is that they have muddied the water when genuine cars do come to light. Everyone's default setting is "Oh no, not another fake". This devalues (not in money terms) the whole lot of them in a lot of people eyes.

The other reason that 3rd parties have to be a little circumspect when discussing this issue is that one day, sooner or later someone will find themselves in court having accused a "Very valuable Works Car" of being a fake & being sued for devaluing some clowns prized investment. It may sound unlikely now, but you just watch, it will happen one day.

M

Mark,

You and Pete have summed this up absolutely 100%. This fake works car problem is now well known and it has now hurt the whole ex-works Mini scene for people who own genuine cars. Look at state of this latest bundle of junk up for sale. Pete is right the description of it is laughable. If I had the sort of money some fool will pay for this heap, I would use it to buy a nice FIA Appendix K car to use and enjoy. By the way that is a nice Mk1 race car Pete built

Alan

[Supersonic]

Mark,

Forgot also to say, you are 100% right, someday in the not too distant future a Law Court action will arise on this subject. Some nutcase who is a household name in their own living room with loads of money who in his deluded mind believes his replica to be the real deal will take court action. God knows what the outcome could be. We all know only to well that court decisions are not always ruled in favour of what is right or correct.

Alan

[mk1]

We all know only to well that court decisions are not always ruled in favour of what is right or correct.

Too Right!

[mk1coopers]

They made 89 works cars.........................so far 105 of them have been found

[mk1]

[mzmini]

But they breed like rabbits

[Simon776]

They made 89 works cars.........................so far 105 of them have been found

69 is considered the correct number....by some, others say 71.

[Supersonic]

They made 89 works cars.........................so far 105 of them have been found

Like button

[youngres]

Just to be clear about JMO969D - and despite pad4's continual digs at me and the MCR - JMO is, in my opinion, a pile of rubbish. I have told the owner he is deluded. I've also told James Martin, Bill Price and two other prospective buyers, that the car has nothing I can see to tie it to being an Ex-Works car - everything about it is wrong, everything. However having said that, I have not seen its paper trail, so it could well end up with the V5 - but without a V5 it is worth a fraction of the asking price and with a guide price of between £120k and £150k, the saving grace is it will not sell. At least I sincerely hope not.

Robert Young

[Supersonic]

Just to be clear about JMO969D - and despite pad4's continual digs at me and the MCR - JMO is, in my opinion, a pile of rubbish. I have told the owner he is deluded. I've also told James Martin, Bill Price and two other prospective buyers, that the car has nothing I can see to tie it to being an Ex-Works car - everything about it is wrong, everything. However having said that, I have not seen its paper trail, so it could well end up with the V5 - but without a V5 it is worth a fraction of the asking price and with a guide price of between £120k and £150k, the saving grace is it will not sell. At least I sincerely hope not.

Robert Young

Robert,

It is nice to read your comments and it seems we are all on the one approach in regard to this piece of junk on offer soon. Your opinion in addition to the others is most welcome indeed. This joint up approach across the country is needed to stop people in the Mini world being deceived by criminals. In support of what has been written in this thread, nothing said that I can see is offensive; sometimes a dig at each other is nice? This is what makes this site very interesting and vibrant. I also have had a bad experience with the MCR forum. For being honest my temerity in challenging things about the MCR was not well received at all rest assured. But we all are entitled to our opinions and those who made it personal should be kept as far away from the wheel as possible if you want my advice.

Alan

[spoon.450]

I'd guess that this car does not contain one single nut or bolt from the original JMO 969D, but could be quite possibly a continuous history car that after many re-builds ( by people who should never hold a spanner ! ) has " evolved " into this heap. It's registration number was probably removed when exported in 1978, but as Robert suggests, it cold possibly end up getting it back because of its paper trail.
Makes you wonder, what's right and wrong ?

[Simon776]

It's registration number was probably removed when exported in 1978

Probably not, more likely it went before it was computerised. The tax disc looks original and JMO did live in the Torbay area before being exported.
It was back in the UK for Mini 25 in 1984 looking very much like it does now.

[spoon.450]

It's registration number was probably removed when exported in 1978

Probably not, more likely it went before it was computerised.

" Went " where though ? Do we assume that the then owner just mislaid the log book, and the car was sold on without it ?

[Pete]

It's the same situation as any car that was exported before the computerisation cut off. As far as DVLA are concerned it doesn't exist. That would go for any car, the exporter would/should? have surrendered the logbook at the point of export. Having said that, some may well have kept a copy, as the owner of my old 'MEG' had done in California and hence the car was easy to re register under the original number when re-imported. Due to Comps Dept recording chassis and reg numbers of their comp cars, even publishing them in Brownings book they've all been easy to apply for even without a copy of the old logbook, because there's a permanent record of tying the chassis number to the registration number even without a DVLA record of it.

£120K ?? You can buy something actually genuinely special for that money, in fact Mini wise - a garage fulll!!

What's ironic about this situation is that this car possibly has a genuine papertrail back to Abingdon, albeit the works rally car's basically all gone!

[Simon776]

" Went " where though ?

The Schaffhausen canton of Switzerland

[LMM76C]

On topic but slightly off the matters being discussed, I was looking in Peter Robinson's MN Championship "Early Years" book for something else and noted the following re-JMO969D.

I was under the impression that Rob Lawrence had not used JMO969D before the Dursley Rally early in 1969 (first round of the 69 MN Championship, result RL first, me....well, not first but at least a finisher...). It seems he was out in it as early as the Shenstone Rally, 2/3 November 68. A photo taken on that event indicates the only external change from when it was on the 68 Scottish with Ytterbring as a works car was removal of the auxiliary radiator and cut grille and fitting a full grille. Hopkirk was entered but non-started "as Abingdon could find no car". (Well, they'd just sold one hadn't they...) That fits with the effective winding down of works Mini rallying.
Lawrence was not on the previous round, the Illuminations Rally, 12/13 October 68. On the previous round to that, the Plains Rally 5/6 October 68, he retired in his old car, 274COG (no reason for retirement given).
O/T but on the subject of Abingdon winding down the works Mini programme, it also says that both Hopkirk and Fall were entered on the Express and Star MN round on 21/22 September 68 but failed to start. Of course those two entries might have been 1800s in the run up to London-Sydney, but may have been intended to be Minis that were now too few to lend out to works drivers.

[youngres]

I was under the impression that Rob Lawrence had not used JMO969D before the Dursley Rally early in 1969 (first round of the 69 MN Championship

Yes indeed - back in the days when JMO969D was used on MN events and was much as it left Abingdon - but sadly nothing like it is now, nor has been for ages.

Robert