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Old English White wrote:

Pete wrote: I'm not sure that complete new cars were used to build up the next incarnation of a "works" registration number (a complete car would have attracted taxes too).

I'm going to do some digging and find out but I did read somewhere a quote from Bill Price saying they aquired new cars to build a new rally car from as opposed to a shell, there's quite a few Abingdon shots showing complete red and black cars prior to build up but considering how many rally cars they put out there's bound to be.There's also the option that was often taken of just transferring the number from a tired car onto another of their rally cars of course though in the case of "The Graham Hill Car" you'd expect them to put him out in the best car they had, ie a brand spanker. Is it correct to say that GRX 309D was released from Abingdon as a more or less complete trimmed car with a 970 engine in it Dave?

Re the Graham Hill car on the 66 RAC. It was being frequently stated that the parallel Jim Clark Lotus Cortina must have been a brand new car for the same reason - high profile entry likely to be subject to massive media interest.

It was also commonly thought there were only 3 (the final) works Mk1 Lotus Cortinas in white/green stripe/black bonnet (as opposed to red) - the 66 Alpine cars re-used on the 66 RAC, NVW239C Soderstrom, NVW242C R.Clark, KPU380C Elford (the last 2 being re-used reg nos that had been on red cars).
This didn't fit, unless J.Clark's RAC car, NVW241C, was built up from an existing practice car. (Mk1 works Lotus Cortinas were all built from shells modified on the production line, so starting from a standard road car was not an option, unlike with Minis). I eventually found a brief reference to R.Clark's 66 1000 Lakes car being white/green alongside Soderstrom's red car. Then a photo in a Finnish language book showed it to have been NVW241C.

I'm sure GRX309D on the 66 RAC was a new car, particularly now we have dismissed the confusion arising from both Bill Price and Peter Browning wrongly recording it as on the Welsh before the RAC rather than after. Ford didn't have that option.

Pete wrote:
I'm going to do some digging and find out but I did read somewhere a quote from Bill Price saying they aquired new cars to build a new rally car from as opposed to a shell,

ive read this, and it makes perfect sense that the lads would just take a full car from the end of the production line - it probably had a single 'part number' which made it easy to 'knock off stock'

just think of the hassle if they had to go down the production line picking all the individual parts.....

.....and the paper work............................

Pete wrote:

Old English White wrote:

Pete wrote: I'm not sure that complete new cars were used to build up the next incarnation of a "works" registration number (a complete car would have attracted taxes too).

Is it correct to say that GRX 309D was released from Abingdon as a more or less complete trimmed car with a 970 engine in it Dave?

That's right Pete, to the best of our knowledge ( at this stage ! ) Pauls car left Abingdon as a complete car, with some of the works parts taken off and replaced by standard parts ( dash, front seats, loom ) with red/gold brocade interior and a 970 engine, all which are still with the car. We understand that Jonny Organ was instrumental in this action.

LMM76C wrote:
I'm sure GRX309D on the 66 RAC was a new car, particularly now we have dismissed the confusion arising from both Bill Price and Peter Browning wrongly recording it as on the Welsh before the RAC rather than after. Ford didn't have that option.

You'd have thought so though Hill didn't do much with it on the RAC and the owner of the Sebring car in the U.S was adamant when I spoke to him some years ago that his racer was the rally car and says there are body details to prove it! BUT the Sebring car had a post '66 Mk2 style bootlid when built so is highly unlikely to have been the '66 RAC car which was most likely brand new as you say.

LMM76C wrote:
now we have dismissed the confusion arising from both Bill Price and Peter Browning wrongly recording it as on the Welsh before the RAC rather than after.

Keith, are the dates quoted in the mentioned books for GRX 309D's events wrong ? Flowers Feb 66, Polish and Welsh Aug 66 and RAC Nov 66 ? Can you advise the actual dates if so please.

Thanks
Dave

spoon.450 wrote: Keith, are the dates quoted in the mentioned books for GRX 309D's events wrong ? Flowers Feb 66, Polish and Welsh Aug 66 and RAC Nov 66 ? Can you advise the actual dates if so please.
Thanks
Dave

I posted it somewhere earlier on this thread but the 66 Welsh ran 9-11 December. Price gives the August date and Browning puts the Welsh before the RAC, with no date. The 66 RAC ran 19-23 November 66. The Welsh never ran in August any year. The next Welsh after Dec 66 was May 69 (no event in 67 or 68) and it had an early May date from then on.
The fact that the 66 Welsh followed the RAC was in my memory (because it was famous for both "works" cars crashing out from hitting deep standing water, the other being Roger Clark in his RAC car NVW242C, which must have had a new engine after the RAC). For the record, the exact date of the Welsh comes from Mark Griffin and Martin Leonard's marvellous book "The Welsh Rally" and the RAC date comes from the official programme, both of which I have.
See earlier on also for comments on the damage on the Welsh and the probability it was the Hill RAC car with a new gearbox rather than a number plate swap.
I can probably get the exact dates for the Flowers and Polish from the Motorsport 60s archive CD.

A photo of GRX309D on the Welsh would of course be extremely useful. There ought to have been at least one Foster and Skeffington photo. It was their practice to take one photo of every car on the first stage (in the expectation that every entry ought to get that far!).
The normal Welsh format was an evening start (I'd need to check 66) so the dark inhibited early photos. Mark Griffin was in charge of photos for the "Welsh" book and may have turned one up. I don't have his Email but I'm sure I have Martin Leonard's (who also posts as "McTaff" on a couple of forums).

Talking of the '66 RAC car (which we weren't ) I happened upon an old Miniworld article t'other day featuring the restored car and the detailed story of what looks like a superb build .In contrast there was absolutely no detail in it's discovery other than 'it resurfaced in the 90's'.
Should have some good news on some new photos soon Dave, fingers crossed.

I spoke with Alan Bell today ( who owned the car 1973-75 ). He told me that he bought the car from an advert in Car and Car Conversions in 73 from a chap in Hastings for about £250. It was advertised as ex- works and he was told it had done the Monte Carlo rally. It was under its current id of GMM 51B. Alans wife used it mainly, as a road car until it was sold in 75, again through a CCC ad. to someone in the Midlands/Notts area for £300. We have just got contact details for the chap ( from Bromsgrove ) who Paul bought the car from in 79 so will update when we have spoken to him.
Another very interesting fact that Alan told me was that in 1974, while he still owned GRX 309D / GMM 51B he was offered a red Cooper S, with a " flat " 1100 engine ( 1098, not 1071 ) and to the best of his recollection dry suspension. This car was registered GRX 555D ! Alan was at the time doubtful of this car as it was lacking some of the works features of his car, S engine, door padding, battery box skid plate, internal hydro pipes ?? etc. so although the car was only £285, Alan valued it at £265 ( mainly due to the lack of S engine ) so did not end up buying it. It was in the Hinkley / Leicestershire area and Alan thinks it stayed there for a while on the Club rally circuit.
This sounds like the car that eventually ended up being owned by Dave Gilbert, and I think is currently being restored in Italy ??
Although not really relevant to GRX 309D but an interesting story !

Dave

Following on from my previous post, I have a photo of the letter which came with the car when Paul bought it, which initially led us to believe it was GRX 55D ( not GRX 555D ). I am unable to upload it but will mail it to Pete who ( as before ! ) hopefully will upload it for me. Thanks in advance Pete !
Note engine number 41279, which according to Peter Browning and Bill Prices books relates to JBL 494D

The original GRX55D and 555D were Group 1 cars so would not (meaning could not within regs) have had lines inside - and would almost certainly not have had a battery box skid for a (smooth) Monte. 55D became a full Gp2 car (the first with arches) for the Circuit of Ireland and was "written off" - but was it the original or a number plate swap?
555D only ever appeared again on the Polish before being sold (orig car or no plate swap?) - other reference sources not to hand so can't check if it was Gp1 or 2.

spoon.450 wrote: he bought the car from an advert in Car and Car Conversions in 73

I'll see if I can find the ad.

spoon.450 wrote: I am unable to upload it but will mail it to Pete who ( as before ! ) hopefully will upload it for me.

I'll sort it in the morning Dave. The chassis number is just a Morris Mini, from a car they brought in to use for another build? They definately built a few rally (Cooper S) cars from 850 donors in period (like a few did in the 90s! ). I asked Stuart Turner and he recalls shells being brought in to replace tired ones to deflate my theory a little, but it was obviously a mix of the two and your car certainly wasn't stripped bare was it! Have you dated the glass by the way?

Thanks Pete.

According to Hopkirk the "retirement" of 55D on the Circuit of Ireland involved the roof being crushed to bonnet level and other parts caught in the branches of a tree, so subsequent use as a practice car seems unlikely.
The original 309D becoming a practice car after the Flowers until the number was re-used on a new car for the Polish is more plausible.

Yes there's a few wires crossed in that letter.

LMM76C wrote:According to Hopkirk the "retirement" of 55D on the Circuit of Ireland involved the roof being crushed to bonnet level and other parts caught in the branches of a tree, so subsequent use as a practice car seems unlikely.
The original 309D becoming a practice car after the Flowers until the number was re-used on a new car for the Polish is more plausible.

I have seen a photo ( somewhere ! ) to support that level of damage to 55D

Is this the image?

Robert