1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa, (now supercharged 8 port)

Images & stories about our current projects, cars, engines & all sorts of other stuff.
Post Reply
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

more dyno time today, and last friday as well!
on the session last week we realised i'd set the cam sensor angle wrong, i was sure i'd followed the manual but hey ho, the software displays a figure (i hadnt seen it before) and suffice to say mine was double that..
We also reduced the number of injector drivers down to two, and tested swinging the injection angle around to equalise the afr's between inner and outer cylinders, it didnt work.
After prolonged calls to DTA it was agreed my lambda positioning was incorrect and even though swinging this timing could be felt and heard to be working, without the dual lambdas working properly we were pissing around in the dark and wasting time.
The fuel map was given a quick going over in the midrange so it was safe for the 8 hour plus Mitp trip.
Fast forward to today. Since coming back from Mitp on monday I'd removed the exhaust system, added new lambda bosses to both outer branches of the lcb, wrapped a good chunk of the lcb, painted it with heat reflective paint, wrapped the central section of the exhaust with a special foil blanket (to help stop me cooking inside the car) and got it all refitted, and did some work on the Mk1 8 port as well.
First up was to swing this injection timing angle around to see if it does equalise the afr's - yes it did :) and more importantly you could see it on the gauge this time! Next we opened the injection angle map up to work through the various rev and load sites and input some figures.
Thats where we came unstuck, theres a bug in the dta software that stops you from live mapping on this particular map, normally on fuel, ign, boost control, any other map, you swing the values using the dyno control knobs to get what you want and press enter to save the value to that particular cell, then move onto another load/throttle position and do it again and again. Bad for me it doesnt work and wont be fixed till the next software update. :(

The only other way is to work through each cell, write down the figures then manually input them, but this is slow and dyno time is already hard on a car so i said we'd wait. As an interim fix we used a fixed angle thats 'there or there abouts' and gives good equalization most of the time.

Finally a quick check on the injector dead time value (Yep! another one where the manufacturers value I'd put it didnt agree with that calculated by the software :roll: ) meant the main fuel map needed running through again and checking / adjusting as required. so that was us done.

figure wise, virtually the same as last time, 117.7bhp, torque was up to 112 this time with increases across most of the rev range and a big chunk around up top, it also pulled from lower down as well. The peak power comes in around 500rpm lower than before and also pretty much flatlines to the rev limiter.

So thats it for a while bar some minor slow rev/load remapping and minor tweeks which i'll do with road tuning.

eta
quick video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNEbuT8ZPTo
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
mk1
Site Admin
Posts: 19842
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
Location: Away with the Faries
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by mk1 »

Clever stuff!

I know I "should" understand all the modern stuff, but it just "does something" when it enters my head rendering it unintelligible.
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

I thought i understood it, till we changed to half the number of injectors pulses and it made no difference. The logic in my head of how it worked (or how i thought it was going to work) went south :lol:

Then the fact that the ECU manual says something like 'unlike the A series engine which needs equal firing and unequal injector timing' and thats the ONE thing that doesnt work on the ecu as normal! - makes you realise nobody else has obviously tried it and reported back :roll:
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
mk1
Site Admin
Posts: 19842
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
Location: Away with the Faries
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by mk1 »

I look forward to following your progress with interest.

Even if I don't understand it :lol:
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

excessive oil consumption has led me to suspect the engine is a bit buggered somewhere, either the old pistons have come a cropper or maybe a piston ring, I dont think its the scores in the bores that have been there since day one as the oil use has ocurred suddenly. :(

The ecu software bug should be fixed by the year end, but what if that doesnt fix my mixture issues :?:
One way round it was to throw on a seven port head, keeping my nice cam and much modified exhaust manifold, it would be a brilliant comparison.
I was really wanting the alloy version but they dont seem to be about at the moment due to casting issues, the Specialist components one is too modern looking and the Minisport one i've heard mixed things about, and its 2grand.

So what to do??
Well the picture below shows whats in the offing, ex turbo engine with big dished pistons meets 8 port head!
Cam is NOS sprint version, new big bore exhaust manifold (not big enough at the ports mind..) Induction wise not sure, whatever I decide its obviously fuel injection, just seeing what'll fit under the bonnet will have to wait till its in the car i think? The inlet manifolds i have are as long as the inlets and throttle bodies on the bench there (from my brothers 8 port)
KIMG0510.jpg

Engine is currently half transformed to 8 port spec, new bearings fitted, new thrusts, new followers. Static CR works out at 12.6:1
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
mk1
Site Admin
Posts: 19842
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
Location: Away with the Faries
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by mk1 »

Sorry to hear that you have had to do an engine swap, but at least you have a decent selection of bits to build a replacement with.

I look forward to following your progress.
User avatar
rich@minispares.com
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:16 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by rich@minispares.com »

the only way is Arden!
should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'
g111mds
Basic 850
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:42 am
Location: Edinburgh

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by g111mds »

What a lovely build on this.
1965 (C) Almond Green Mk1
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

rich@minispares.com wrote:the only way is Arden!
You would say that though, ever the salesman :lol:

Fyi the 2012 spec head stud set looks to be fine to use on this early, early head.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
morris-miner
998 Cooper
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:50 pm
Location: Sunny Devon

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by morris-miner »

I'm fascinated with builds like this, even though all the technical wizardry leaves me numb and confused!!
Looking forward to more updates.
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

I'll try and keep this updated as i go along, theres obviously a facebook album with a bit of chit chat on here for those that can see it:

https://www.facebook.com/richard.allen. ... nref=story

It 'should' be set to public.

This was me measuring the combustion chambers.
22104743_10214661286436832_5682465651961700541_o.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
User avatar
minimans
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:24 am
Location: Sonoma California
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by minimans »

I'm looking forward to more details on this head build! I'm at the moment putting together my Arden 8 port onto a 1380 A+ block. My problem is the head has been skimmed down to 11cc chambers and I'm having to use 11cc dish pistons to get the deck height and Comp. ratio down to a sane level for a road car. My head is also an early original head #46. I have a sprint cam for it and am worried about valve to piston clearance even with a 120thou Cometic gasket. But I'll get it all resolved when I get the block back from the machine shop and do a dummy build. I'm sure it could all be worked out on paper but that's why it's called a dummy build for people like me! I can use a Micrometer but not a pencil.......................

Not much of a chamber left is there.......................
IMG_1426.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
mk1
Site Admin
Posts: 19842
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
Location: Away with the Faries
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by mk1 »

numb and confused!!

Ha, ha, that's my permanent state.
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

KIMG0538_Fotor.jpg
Flow Bench testing last night, good flow at low to mid lifts but strangled at max lift due to the small port size (33mm)

Parked the car up today and made a start on stripping it down.
Last look!
KIMG0541_Fotor.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
User avatar
rich@minispares.com
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:16 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by rich@minispares.com »

11cc

hells teeth!
should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

Been busy.
engineout_Fotor.jpg
later that afternoon.
engineapart_Fotor.jpg
Then I could start swapping bits to the replacement short motor and checking the various clearances.
Primary endfloat, used all the bits of the broken motor
primaryendfloat_Fotor.jpg
Cam endfloat
camendfloat_Fotor.jpg
bastard of a job getting the new woodruff key to fit in the slot, then the cam sprocket over the cam/key.

On cylinders two and four the head of the conrod bolt fouls the cam lobes. and needs a tiny bit taken off.
camlobes_Fotor.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

then you can crack on with the cam timing, to find that when its set you can feel the tiniest touch of the lobes again, so the conrod bolt heads need a miniscule amount more off.
camtiming_Fotor.jpg
the empty engine bay reveals a few secrets
KIMG0542_Fotor.jpg
So thats going to get rewelded and beefed up, also the rubbers of the ultimate engine steady on the waterpump have eaten themselves, plus i found a melted wire(s) coming off the starter motor, i guess a legacy of when the lighting switch and dip switch failed. so some work required in the bay.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
User avatar
minimans
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:24 am
Location: Sonoma California
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by minimans »

There's a copy of the ST instructions for the rod mod here................... http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/st_news.pdf
Richspec
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1254
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:26 pm
Location: East Cumbria

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by Richspec »

yep, cheers i'm aware of that, i just file it till it clears, its not the whole head that needs angling either, as you can see from the pic its just one end.
Wanna see what I'm playing with? Youtube Channel
Caution ;) may contain 8 Ports, Xe's and VTec's, I don't do standard!
mk1
Site Admin
Posts: 19842
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
Location: Away with the Faries
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: 1965 Mk1 road/rally Bitsa

Post by mk1 »

Oh the joys of bespoke engine building!

Keep up the good work.
Post Reply