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I'm in full agreement with the last post, history belongs to everyone. I've been following this thread from the start and still can't figure out what smithmaps means when he or she stated " I think beer is one of the biggest issues with this forum" I don't drink? Have I missed something?

I suggest it cannot be denied that the very celebrity which a car brings to an owner also carries with it some element of opportunity and obligation, which might be considered a quid pro quo for the opportunities it affords. E.g. An invitation to The Goodwood Revival, or a 'celebrity car' entry to an endurance rally.

It seems to me there are four sources which should be used when describing a certain car.
1. Any comment which only an owner chooses to make about a particular shell which he/she currently owns. If this is incorrect will often emerge from other sources in the public domain.
2 Information and details in the public domain, press and in publications about cars, events entered, entry, driver name, number and result.
3 The source needs to be stated regarding any objective quote from a publication about a car. No personal comment should be made about an individual.
4, Photos from a event where they are permitted.

With the exception of 1. above, none of this includes issues whether a car has a shell which is original, rebuilt, recreated, a replica
or any other euphemism, or what constitutes the definition of each.

Comments appreciated.

Don't ever give up Guy you are the voice of reason and dare I say common sense.

After a weekend racing where the talk always gets around to the history of this old race car or that old rally car we all appreciate the genuine enthusiasm and friendship we can share. We don't all have to know every detail of every car but it would be good if those with information can ensure it is somehow preserved.

Cheers SJ

At the end of the day fellas if people are that backed up that they don't want to share the history of their historically significant cars then that's absolutely their perogative. They'll have their own reasons for that and obviously the vacuum will be filled with speculation by the 'uninformed'. What they cannot complain about however whilst in their special display areas, the paddock at Goodwood, in front of TV cameras or with that famous rally driver sat in the hot seat is that people are interested. You can't have your cake and eat it, and you shouldn't look down your nose at people for wanting to know about it!

Can you imagine the reaction if a restored Supermarine Spitfire appeared and the owner swerved any conversation about where he found it or how it came to be. Imagine if the guys rebuilding Bluebird kept anything hidden about the discovery and rebuild process??

These matters are of public interest whether owners like it or not, and as in the case of Bluebird it's a matter of opinion what should have been done with it when it was found and what it'll represent when it's finished. To deny people that opinon or call them haters is an easy way out to shut down conversation and just ads to the speculation.

For Guy to imply that the reason owners don't want to talk about it is due to ill manners or criticism is to put the cart before the horse in my opinion. If there wasn't so much secrecy over SOME of these cars this wouldn't ever be the case. Can I also say I witnessed a genuine works car being ripped to bits by an expert and works Mini owner last year so please don't tell me it's just us 'speculators' that have strong opinions Guy because you know it isn't.

The elephant in the room here of course, that we're all tippy toe-ing around, is that Guy bought the remnants of BJB 77B that had been made into a trailer and somehow that transformed into a historic rally car, despite the fact the trailer still exists. Now we can talk til the cows come home about how legit that is to do or how valuable it was to get Timo back in to a rally car on an RAC but what we can't ever say is that it's wrong to be interested!!

Like I've said there's more to be bothered with in this world and if people want to be very private about all this stuff then get on with it. Right I'm off to fuel up with beer again. Allegedly.

Wonder how many cars were built in Abingdon? Must be a fair few, and obviously with less identities to attach to them as build times, spec, and closing dates for event entries dictated.

That would look priceless wouldn't it . In print in a new book that BJB77B was made from a trailer .. ken

The elephant in the room.............

I am not convinced that Robert Youngs 'trailer' is a good example. It has been freely said that works cars have been built from less.
Guy and Robert has been open about where it came from and that it still exists.m All of this is on record for posterity
Personally, I would have been tempted to build the trailer into the back of another car, or claim to have done so and destroy the trailer. All of this is on record for posterity and one must applaud them for that.

Wonder how many cars were built in Abingdon?

See Guy's post Fri. 26th May

G'day

Being so far from the centre of the Works Car universe it is difficult to follow all of the points raised in these discussions. I'm unsure what cars are shrouded in secrecy but Robert's beautiful car certainly isn't one. No one could say there is any doubts about it and how it came to be. It is all out there and if Robert was ever inclined to sell, any buyer would know exactly what they are buying.

From my following of the Works Cars I haven't seen much secrecy. Uncertainty for sure but that is not unexpected given how the Works operated.

I'd love to have free entry to Goodwood but don't expect it will ever happen. My car has been displayed once, after much badgering from others. I wasn't keen as it was quite an effort but I do understand people may want to look at it.

I doubt it will see many more shows but if asked may be interested.

I am very happy to talk about what I know about the car but there are still unknowns and even last week I received more information regarding its past. That for me is a lot of the fun.

Having spent most of it's life in Australia where we don't suffer many of the rust and related issues our friends in the U.K. do the car hasn't been reshelled but it has had a lot of work done to repair a fairly long Australian rally career. Graeme's car is even better in my opinion.

I think the Minicooperforum data base is useful but I think it will struggle to get data that is not a
Ready in the public domain. Whether those with other information choose to share it is really up to them. I would love to see it and even more so if relevant to the cars around my car's time. But I certainly don't hold. A grudge if they don't share it.

My dream is to get to the Cooper Register Show and see some of the great Minis that are always on display. The Works cars will be great, whatever form they are in.

Please let's just enjoy what we have. Keep up the generally good mannered discussion and anyone heading Downunder please look us up.

Cheers Syd

The story of BJB 77B is vague to most, and has not been clarified ( publicly ) by the people involved with the discovery / identity claim / recreation. The car is a fantastic build, but the trailer is a piece of ex works history, and I for one would view it with appreciation and probably get a feeling of authenticity from it ( if stood near it ). Something that is lost in a recreation.

Dave

The issue is not restricted to Minis..

"...The fact that the works were not like museum curators in their record keeping is very well known, making the job of the historian almost impossible, at worst being reduced to best guess..."

A "few" years ago the local Mini club visited Bob Tullius (the Guy responsible for getting Jaguar back to Le Mans) at his Group 44 workshops in west VA.. Bob and his guys were very successful Brit car racers in Transam, IMSA and other US sports car championships with Triumphs and Jags. As the cars became "used up" they were rolled out the back of the shop and gradually stripped where bits were found to be needed for new projects. Come the late 80s and "classic" race cars were becoming a valuable product so they rolled the left overs back into the shop and rebuilt them.

When I asked one of the mechanics how they knew what the exact configuration of a particular car he just laughed. But he went on to point out that he built the original so when it came to the question of what and where for some component he reckoned that his thinking hadn't changed. So when it came to fitting something, he was happy that the solution he came up with would have been pretty much what he would originally have done - and who was going to argue with him that "it wasn't like that back when..". I'm sure the new owners were happy that they were getting a "genuine" Group 44 race car.

On a more sinister side I have an acquaintance who has a genuine LeMans racer from a major British manufacturer in his garage. The car was a one off..except for a spare chassis. This chassis has subsequently been but up and the owner has threatened my mate with severe financial (and physical) consequences should he ever attempt to dispute the identity of the fake....

With money at stake history cannot be left to the good will of owners past and present.. the full stories need to be recorded.

Cheers, Ian

Smithmaps wrote:What a great post Al.
You have it in a nutshell.
All the time there is inference if dishonesty or fakery, the whole thing clams up.
Even if it were all announced in glorious technicolor., I don't suppose they would believe it anyway!
So better it goes with me to my grave.
And any way, neither I nor the Mini Cooper Register can give out personal information about peoples cars for fear of being sued.

If every mini owner were asked by a club, is your car rebodied, how many do you think would fill in the form, or how many would not join?
It is fanciful to think that owners of not so original cars would offer up, if they thought that the information would be published for all to see.
It is human nature. I guess too that a lot of the owners don't even know if their cars are right or wrong.
It is left to a few of us to record it, but if we plaster it all over the place, who will share with us.
I repeat again, it is down to each owner.
Guy

All very interesting Guy but I'm amazed you don't realise why so many are so cynical about red and white Minis when it was you was it not that got a logbook for a trailer? BJB 77B? I think the man protesteth too much!!"

Turbo88 wrote:

Smithmaps wrote:What a great post Al.
You have it in a nutshell.
All the time there is inference if dishonesty or fakery, the whole thing clams up.
Even if it were all announced in glorious technicolor., I don't suppose they would believe it anyway!
So better it goes with me to my grave.
And any way, neither I nor the Mini Cooper Register can give out personal information about peoples cars for fear of being sued.

If every mini owner were asked by a club, is your car rebodied, how many do you think would fill in the form, or how many would not join?
It is fanciful to think that owners of not so original cars would offer up, if they thought that the information would be published for all to see.
It is human nature. I guess too that a lot of the owners don't even know if their cars are right or wrong.
It is left to a few of us to record it, but if we plaster it all over the place, who will share with us.
I repeat again, it is down to each owner.
Guy

All very interesting Guy but I'm amazed you don't realise why so many are so cynical about red and white Minis when it was you was it not that got a logbook for a trailer? BJB 77B? I think the man protesteth too much!!"

Have you got lost Guy using Smithmaps? Think I will give my question a miss, you fly with the crows without question

Turbo88 wrote:

Turbo88 wrote:

Smithmaps wrote:What a great post Al.
You have it in a nutshell.
All the time there is inference if dishonesty or fakery, the whole thing clams up.
Even if it were all announced in glorious technicolor., I don't suppose they would believe it anyway!
So better it goes with me to my grave.
And any way, neither I nor the Mini Cooper Register can give out personal information about peoples cars for fear of being sued.

If every mini owner were asked by a club, is your car rebodied, how many do you think would fill in the form, or how many would not join?
It is fanciful to think that owners of not so original cars would offer up, if they thought that the information would be published for all to see.
It is human nature. I guess too that a lot of the owners don't even know if their cars are right or wrong.
It is left to a few of us to record it, but if we plaster it all over the place, who will share with us.
I repeat again, it is down to each owner.
Guy

All very interesting Guy but I'm amazed you don't realise why so many are so cynical about red and white Minis when it was you was it not that got a logbook for a trailer? BJB 77B? I think the man protesteth too much!!"

Have you got lost Guy using Smithmaps? Think I will give my question a miss, you fly with the crows without question

Turbo88,

You will have greater odds of winning tonight’s Lotto than getting a reply to that question I’m afraid to say. The Untouchables close ranks when questions are ask about their red and white replicas

Alan

Apparently 570 FMO has just been restored, what's the recent history of that car anyone? Can't say I've ever seen it before.

Sigh! Yawn.

hanlminiman wrote:Sigh! Yawn.

Eh??

Pete wrote:Apparently 570 FMO has just been restored, what's the recent history of that car anyone? Can't say I've ever seen it before.

Looking forward to this.....

I saw the car on minis to Ireland, she is a beautiful car with restoration just finishing. Don't know much more other than it's owned by an elderly gentlyman from Northern Ireland, he restored it with some of his close friends. The simplicity of these early works cars makes them very beautiful cars in my opinion. Cracking car!
Below is a nice photo of some of the Red & Whites that took part in the event and great to see them driven the way they should be rather than trailered around and looking at them through a glass case.

Left to right AJB4B, AJB443B, BJB77B, 570FMO, ORX707F

Lovely looking cars. Is ORX 707F the only real ex Works car ?