HILOs, since when?

[Astro]

Hello,

The FIA wants me to prove, that HILOs where still available in 1971. When looking for all the MK1 brochures, these HILOs are quite often available, but there is never a date mentioned. Perhaps...

Thank you!

[rich@minispares.com]

the patent GB1378496 was passed 18th December 1970

http://www.directorypatent.com/GB/1378496-a.html

[mab01uk]

This A3 size Hi-Lo Mk2 flyer is from the 1970's but was too big for my A4 scanner so I had to copy it in sections..........this is the Hi-Lo's inventor, the late Tony Chamings version patented in 1970 (also famous for pioneering and building the two 'Gomshall' spaceframe Super Saloon racing Mini's in the 1970's, as seen featured in Triple C magazine at the time. His second spaceframe Mini was featured in Mini Magazine March 2011).
I also have the later Ripspeed Mk3 Hi-Lo flyer which is very similar after Tony Chamings sold the rights and patent to Keith Ripp.
(Tony Chamings died in late 2010).

Mark has also put them up on the main Mk1 website here:-
"One of the most enduring Mini Products of all time!"
http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/hilo.htm









From Keith Calver:
"The Hi-Lo was developed many moons ago, the rights to manufacture originally being purchased by Keith Ripp of 'Ripspeed' fame, where they have remained since. The original design used a long hex key to wind the large threaded bolt into which the knuckle joints were fitted in and out of the cast aluminium cone and had a small hex grub screw in the cone body to 'locate' the adjuster bolt in place once ride height was set. Visually it was quite different from the later models as it was slightly 'lighter' and have four vertical ridges spaced 90 degrees apart (the locating screw was situated in one of these, around half way up it). This was remodelled after a few years, doing away with the locating grub screw - deemed unnecessary since there was no movement of the adjuster bolt once set even without the grub screw - and incorporated a drilled 'drain' hole to allow water collected on top of the cone to drain away instead of corroding the cone and adjuster bolt into uselessness. The advent of the rubber mounted front subframes using the massive tower retaining bolts eventually saw rise of the third incarnation of the Hi-Lo. To aid adjustment without recourse to removing the tower bolts, and indeed having to drill access holes in the rear valance for the long hex key to reach the adjuster in the rear Hi-Los, the new design sported hex-ended adjuster bolts and a locating nut. This now meant ride height could be relatively easily adjusted using a pair of spanners."

"The original design was patented, so the Hi-Lo was the only adjustable spring platform of its type for the Mini for many, many years. Then the patent laws changed. When the original patent ran out, Ripspeed saw no need to renew it on this product. In hindsight, a foolish move as every Tom, Dick and Harry has had a go at producing their own versions. Some good, some appalling. Whatever the actual visual differences, they all incorporate the same adjustable spring platform (cone), using a long distance piece at the rear to connect the knuckle to the cone. Consequently they are all fitted in very much the same manner as the originals."
https://www.calverst.com/technical-info ... rivatives/

[pad4]

Tony Chemmings made them originally and had Jumping Jack Flash (Jeff Williamson) testing them for Rallycross use

pad

[Astro]

much appreciated !

This was very helpful!

Best regards from Germany

[swifty1293]

Hi Los we're never homologated for FIA events
Sorry

[Astro]

Hi Los we're never homologated for FIA events
Sorry

That’s not necessary. App. K says, that you can use a height adjustment on a group 2 if it is contemporary. The FIA just asked me to prove this when they saw the Hilos on the photo. In the meantime we got the new passport for the Mk3 S with Hilos and an Arden head. This was the last event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5dsPgFP5AM

[MiniCooper1460]

Hi Los we're never homologated for FIA events
Sorry

That’s not necessary. App. K says, that you can use a height adjustment on a group 2 if it is contemporary. The FIA just asked me to prove this when they saw the Hilos on the photo. In the meantime we got the new passport for the Mk3 S with Hilos and an Arden head. This was the last event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5dsPgFP5AM

Hi Arno which articles say you can use height adjustment? 2.3.1 of appendix IX?

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... 218%29.pdf

[Astro]

Hi!

"2.3 Spring supports
2.3.1 Adjustable spring platforms and ride height are forbidden unless a
period specification for that model, in which case only the original
means of adjustment may be used.

[MiniCooper1460]

Hi,

so for an Innocenti Cooper 1300 (H period) you can't use them because you must use the last Appendix J of the period.
1976 Appendix J doesn't say anything about spring support!

Bye

[Astro]

Hi

this should be the topic of the contemporary App. J and contemporary parts as well.

o) Suspension-springs and shock-absorbers: complete freedom is left as
regards springs provided the main type of spring is not changed. Yet, the fitting
of other springs must not result in a modification of the mechanical parts beyond
the limits fixed under Art. 260 a), and neither a change or a modification of the
coachwork or the chassis. It is allowed to add auxiliary springs. According to the
definition given under Art. 252 for chassis and coachwork, it is allowed to modify
the non-visible parts of the coachwork.
Complete freedom is also left as regards the number of shock-absorbers, type
and fitting, provided no mechanical part be modified beyond the limits fixed
under Art. 260 a). Nevertheless, mounting brackets may be added to the chassis
and suspension elements.

My interpretation would be that, if it is a group 2, they are allowed.

[MiniCooper1460]

Hi Astro, this is the Art261 (Group 2 car) of 1976 Appendix J

"n) Suspension: It is permitted to modify the original parts of the suspension
according to the specifications of Art 261 b). The addition or suppression of
an anti-sway bar is permitted.
The material and dimensions of the main spring are free, on condition that it
remains unique in the performance of its function.
The addition of auxiliary springs is permitted on condition that the main spring
of origin be retained unchanged.
The shock absorbers anchoring points may be reinforced.
The fitting of joints of a different type andlor material is authorised."

"b) Modifications of the original mechanical parts: The original mechanical
parts having undergone all the normal machining operations foreseen by the
manufacturer for series-production, except those for which the present article
provides a freedom of replacement, may be subject of all perfecting operations
by means of finishing or machining, but not replacement. In other words, provided
the origin of the series-production part may always be ascertained undoubtedly,
this part may be rectified, balanced, lightened, reduced or modified
in its shape through machining. This permission however does not apply to
brake callipers. Any adjunction of material in an homogeneous way (welding,
gluing, electrolysis) is forbidden for the following mechanical elements: engine,
gear-box, transmission, suspension parts."

Reading this articles, I understand the only modification admitted is machining the front and rear struts to lower the car (as it is written on Special Tuning catalogue)!

What is the year of the Appendix J article o) you have posted?
Why do you think they are allowed? "It is allowed to modify the non-visible parts of the coachwork" but it doesn't say anything about suspension parts!

[Astro]

as I wrote before. We used it, as other ones do it, on our G2 car. With the new passport, the FIA wants me to prove that it is contemporary, I did it, and they accepted. Maybe, one should compare it to the coil over constructions of other cars of that period. They are allowed too. The important point seems to be that there is no modification to the seats. You can just change these elements to series ones. Does anyone remember the parts were used in the seventies driving British or European championships?

[MiniCooper1460]

as I wrote before. We used it, as other ones do it, on our G2 car. With the new passport, the FIA wants me to prove that it is contemporary, I did it, and they accepted. Maybe, one should compare it to the coil over constructions of other cars of that period. They are allowed too. The important point seems to be that there is no modification to the seats. You can just change these elements to series ones. Does anyone remember the parts were used in the seventies driving British or European championships?

Ok Astro, thank you for this info: it is very helpful!

Now I have only a question: using Hi-Lo, theorically can you also use negative camber kit and adjustable tie-rod even if they aren't homologated for Innocenti Cooper 1300 Group2, infact there is no modification to the mounting points? They are also contemporary but I think it isn't possible to use them on Innocenti because the car should be irregular!

[Astro]

Hi,

not so fast. These are different things. Springs and shocs are free. There is nothing written about wishbones, tie rods or brackets. The Cooper S has homologated adjustable tie rods, the 1275 GT has homologated tie rod adjusters and longer wishbones. I don't know the homologation papers of the Innocenti. Concerning the rear chamber brackets, there is nothing homologated. All the time one closed the holes by welding and drilled new holes where they were necessary. These longer wishbones, has anyone ever checked them? But they may check the track. That's all.

[sandman]

Hi Arno which articles say you can use height adjustment? 2.3.1 of appendix IX?

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... 218%29.pdf

FYI;

Appendix IX of 'Appendix K' applies ONLY to cars up to and including 1969.

[Astro]

Hi Arno which articles say you can use height adjustment? 2.3.1 of appendix IX?

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... 218%29.pdf

FYI;

Appendix IX of 'Appendix K' applies ONLY to cars up to and including 1969.

It's true. Nevertheless Paris just asked me if I can prove it's to be contemporary. The different app. J does not mention it. But I remember group 2 BMWs with coil over suspension during the 70ies. That should be the same question.

[OzOAP]

Hi Los, 6.25 rods, dog boxes, H4 rubber mounts, 4 bolt steel caps, recast cylinder heads, GT blocks...all allowed in pre 66

[Oneball]

Hi Los, 6.25 rods, dog boxes, H4 rubber mounts, 4 bolt steel caps, recast cylinder heads, GT blocks...all allowed in pre 66

dog boxes aren’t fia legal pre 66 are they?

[OzOAP]

dog boxes aren’t fia legal pre 66 are they?

Not it rallying, but they are in 'Historic' circuit racing , along with torque bias diffs, 'timken' idler drop gears......

If you built a car to 'pre 66' homologation papers you would be lapped...many times.