Wiring question

[Benny]

I've got an Autosparks loom in my '61, and I'm making some of the final connections. It is the "proper", cloth-covered loom for the car, with the floor-start button, but there is a wire that I'm a bit confused by.

I have to admit that wiring has never been my "thing", but I think I'm looking at this correctly. The wire in question is a red wire that emerges from the loom along with the blue wires to the headlights. According to my wiring diagrams, it appears that the red wire runs to the marker-lights. However, I believe the wiring diagram for the '61-'64 is also showing the marker-lights as having dual-filament bulbs, so I presume those would function as running lights, and turn indicators if the red wire were connected to them.

Now, here's my main issue. The marker-lights that I have came out of a '66, and they only have two wires, as well as single-filament bulbs. Also, the "pigtails" that come out of the loom for the marker-lights also only have two wires (green with colored tracer, and black), just like the marker-lights themselves.

Am I correct in assuming that this red wire is redundant in my case, and that my car would have the marker-lights functioning only as turn indicators, and not as running lights?

[Spider]

Benny, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not familiar with a couple of the terms you've used, which it seems is native to the US (and maybe other countries);-

Marker Lamp
Running Lamp

The Red wire you speak of is for what we call a Parker Lamp. In a Mini, these come on with the middle position of the Headlamp Switch, along with the rear Park Lamps, Number Plate Lamp and Instrument Lamp. According to the factory sheet that I have up to 64, on the front, these were located within the Headlamp Unit. It is a separate bulb to the Headlamp bulb and is typically around 5 to 7 watts.

The Turn Indicator again up to 64 was a single filament, two wire unit, one wire was either Green with a Red Trace or Green with a White Trace (depending on if it's Left or Right side) and the other wire was Black (which goes to Earth).

Not sure if that's any help.

[Benny]

Spider,

Yes, my apologies for the terminology....I was trying NOT to use all the American terms, and probably ended up making it more confusing. But, you seem to have understood me just fine!

Ok, that clears things up tremendously. My headlamps do not have provisions for the parker lamps, nor do my turn indicators. This supports my assumption that this wire may end up being redundant on this car, with the lights it currently has.

Thanks very much for the detailed response.

[Spider]

Benny, no worries on the Terminology, we have some weird-arse sayings this way too. Glad to have been of help

[Spider]

Benny, sorry I may have been a little quick off the mark.

What I have said ^ appears correct for Standard and Deluxe Models, but this is where it gets a bit murky.

On UK Export Super and Super Deluxe Models, they had the Parker (Marker?) Lamps as a dual filament lamp with the turn lamp and so were not fitted in to the headlamp assy. Sorry, it doesn't specify which (if any) particular Export Marks this applied to.

Vehicles built for the UK Domestic Market were apparently the same as my first post ^.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - with all the (stupid / silly) little changes and differences between models and years that are of no consequence, it's no wonder they went broke

[Benny]

Vehicles built for the UK Domestic Market were apparently the same as my first post ^.

Well, that makes some sense, because the turn indicators in my car came out of a UK-spec '66, so they are the single-filament type. I suppose the Autosparks harness provides the turn indicator pigtails for the confirmation of MOST cars, and then allows you the option to run the red wire to wherever you need it, depending on you particular model.

[cheleker]

If a U.S. import (i.e., built for the U.S. market) then dual filiment bulb. Acts as turn signal as well as "parking light" in U.S.

[Benny]

If a U.S. import (i.e., built for the U.S. market) then dual filiment bulb. Acts as turn signal as well as "parking light" in U.S.

My issue (in many cases) is that I bought a bare bodyshell, and have pieced it together with parts from various sources. Most of the 'bits' came from a UK-spec, 1966 998 Cooper. The Autosparks harness is a LHD unit, but who knows how 'correct' they try to make them on small details like this.....my guess is that they don't lose any sleep over it.

[rich@minispares.com]

benny

your getting a little lost here I think.

the red wire is the feed for the side lights, so you either run it to the headlamps if the side lights are in them (through the separate headlamp looms), or take it down to the indicators if you have the export twin filament type bulb holders.


the two wires coming out of your single filament bulb holders are green + trace = feed, black = earth/ground

[Benny]

benny

your getting a little lost here I think.

the red wire is the feed for the side lights, so you either run it to the headlamps if the side lights are in them (through the separate headlamp looms), or take it down to the indicators if you have the export twin filament type bulb holders.

I don't think I'm lost.....I don't have provisions for side lights in my headlights, and I have single filament bulbs in my indicators.

I literally have nowhere to run the red wire to, so it becomes redundant, correct?

[rich@minispares.com]

I don't think I'm lost.....I don't have provisions for side lights in my headlights, and I have single filament bulbs in my indicators.

I literally have nowhere to run the red wire to, so it becomes redundant, correct?

no, because then you will have no side lights at all, only dip and main beam.

I guess you either need to buy headlamps with the side lamp bulb in it and the looms with the provision to run them, or some export twin filament indicators.

I guess it will depend on the look you want and the local laws you have.

[Benny]

no, because then you will have no side lights at all, only dip and main beam.

I guess you either need to buy headlamps with the side lamp bulb in it and the looms with the provision to run them, or some export twin filament indicators.

I guess it will depend on the look you want and the local laws you have.

I'm not worried about the 'legal' aspect of it. We don't have MOT's here, and you should see the lighting (or lack thereof, in some cases) that people get away with. That part will never cause me an issue.

I'll just go without side lights for now, and if a pair of dual-filament indicators present themselves, I'll add them later.

[ianh1968]

.....I don't have provisions for side lights in my headlights, and I have single filament bulbs in my indicators.

Benny,

Didn't the original sealed beam units have a small clear patch in the reflective coating
and then a small plastic bracket thing that fixed to the headlamp bulb plug?

This assembly looks like one of those old-fashioned camera flash units...

Here are some photos. ( Not shown is the capless/wedge bulb )

If you look at your lamps, they may have the necessary clear window.
The new loom may not include the lamp holders for the "side lights" as we call
them here in the UK



I have a pair of these, but the wires have been snipped of short. Not much of a
challenge for someone building a whole car... I am not sure if the actual headlamp
bulb plastic parts are all the same, but these old style ones have 4 holes for the
sidelight assembly to clip into. A certain amount of mix-n-match may be needed.

If you want them, PM me and I'll send them over to you for a nominal sum to
cover the postage.

Ian

[Benny]

Ian,

Thank you for the kind offer, but my headlights are modern, "Lucas" H4's, and definitely don't have provisions for those.

I've seen drawings of those in catalogs, but I've never seen an actual pic of them. They are a neat little contraption.

[ianh1968]

Benny,

You are right, the later H4/P43t type are far better - I did not know if you were
doing a full "original-spec" build or not.

The normal weak point for higher than standard power bulbs is the indicator-stalk
style dip switch, followed by the main headlamp switch. After the switch-gear, it's
the actual bulb plug terminals that get hot.

I made my own wiring loom and spec'd it to handle 160w/100w bulbs, but normally
I use 130W/90W. I always get them aimed properly so I never get angry people
coming the other way flashing me...

Another old trick that I learnt from my Dad is to wire the dipped beam with a relay
so that it comes back on with the main beam. With two filaments pulling current
through a common earth on the lamp plug, I can only really use this facility with
the standard 60w/55w bulbs as I am sure that the plugs would quite quickly melt
with my 130w/90w's.



Ian

PS - I hope you got your clutch sorted?

[pad4]

Benny if youre running the H4 halogens without the pilot light (side light / running light) then that red wire might as well be redundant if youre not going to take it into a dual filament bulb in the indicator unit - Ive just installed H4s with pilot lights in my 71 so I used the red wire to power the pilots.

Pad

[Benny]

Ok, guys, I've got a couple more.....I believe these are the last tha have me stumped. One of the issues is that I'm working between two wiring diagrams in the Haynes manual, and an Autobooks manual, and neither diagram matches my loom perfectly.....need to get hold of a factory manual.

Ok, behind the instrument binnacle, there are two brown w/green wires that come to a single connection (first pic). One of my manuals indicates that these might be to an interior light switch. This would make some sense, as there is also a brown w/green wire that emerges from the main loom where it joins to the rear loom under the cowl, but there is no "mate" for that wire in my rear loom (3rd picture).

I'm confident that the two green wires (in the middle of my second pic) are to the fuel gauge, as they tie to the oil pressure warning light, as per the wiring diagram. The other one that has me confused is the light green wire (left side of second pic). One of my wiring diagram also appears to show that one going to the fuel gauge (making a total of 3 connections at the gauge), but I don't understand its function.

Lastly, one thing that seems very odd to me is that the wires to the horn (last picture) are the same brown w/green, and there is continuity between one of those wires, and the "loose" wire under the cowl.

Anyone have any thoughts for a "wiring idiot"?

[Spider]

The Brown / Green Wires are a live feed to a switch that is on the side of the Instrument Binnacle. The Switch is for parcel shelf lamps, which I'm pretty sure were inside the binnacle and illuminate through the holes in the sides of it.

Plain Green Wires are Feed wires, that come via the Ignition Switch and a Fuse. The drawing I have only shows a connection for the Fuel Gauge for this wire.

The wire for the Horn Switch in the drawing is Purple with a Black trace, the other side of the switch going to earth. I can't see any Brown / Green wire near the steering column.

And Benny, I think you're far from a "wiring idiot", please refrain from calling yourself that

[Benny]

The Brown / Green Wires are a live feed to a switch that is on the side of the Instrument Binnacle. The Switch is for parcel shelf lamps, which I'm pretty sure were inside the binnacle and illuminate through the holes in the sides of it.

Plain Green Wires are Feed wires, that come via the Ignition Switch and a Fuse. The drawing I have only shows a connection for the Fuel Gauge for this wire.

The wire for the Horn Switch in the drawing is Purple with a Black trace, the other side of the switch going to earth. I can't see any Brown / Green wire near the steering column.

Interesting. I currently have the double brown w/green wire labeled as 'parcel shelf light switch' based on one of my wiring diagrams, however, I began to doubt that because there were no additional lamp bulb sockets in the loom to make use such a switch. I thought I had figured it out when I found the stray brown w/green going to the rear loom, as I thought perhaps it could have powered an over-head interior lamp in some models.

But then to discover that the horn connections are the same color, and that there is continuity between the horn connection and the connection under the cowl has really thrown me through a loop.

Does your diagram show three connections going to the fuel gauge, or just two?

Thanks for the help on this.

[Spider]

From previous experience with new looms, I'd guess that the part with the additional lamp sockets and wires for the parcel shelf would be a separate small (very small!) loom. For example, the guy I get mine from has the head lamp wiring separate. What made me check the diagram for yours is that a Brown Wire is normally a live feed straight off the battery, not fused! However, in this case it is fused. I know our later (than 64) cars here used a Purple Wire, which is a direct fused feed.

What also threw me on that is that the wiring in our cars is done to the Lucas Wiring Standard, I've posted the chart below.

The Green Wires to the Fuel Gauge are looped, yes.

Sorry, I should have done this before, here's the factory diagram;-





and the British Wiring Standard (which I believe was developed by Lucas)



<Edit to replace drawings and chart thanks to Photobucket (not) >