1963 1071 Cooper S - info wanted

[Pete]

I'd rather be Swifty, he gets to drive it next year ! !

[Flygirl]

As others have pointed out, Pete has put in an amazing number of hours of his personal time into the research of this car. We are really thankful for all his efforts, as there is no way we could have tracked down the details as he has done. A very commendable job, indeed!

Certainly more information will continue to unfold about the car, from both eras of the US and UK which I am sure everyone will find interesting.

Thanks again Pete!


Cheers,
Rachel

[Pete]

Rachel I've just sent you an email. Through an eagle eyed Billy on here I do believe I've found a photo of LNP racing in it's UK colours in the U.S, possibly at Sebring !! Want to check this before I post it.

[SMOKE GREY]

A very interesting read, this thread Two things i'd like to point out

1, I am pretty sure the photo of GPH1C at Sebring is 1966, due to the wheelarch spats that were designed and introduced by Abingdon due to a change in the regs, 4.5" rims and R7 racers stuck out slightly on a car with no arches. I have a photo somewhere of a transporter loading Sprites etc for Sebring in 65, and the Cooper is the CCC car 231VPK.

2, Some people just do not 'get' the re-shell bit on race/rally cars, totally different then a normal road car. Two instances spring to mind, the works 997 Cooper 477BBL between the november 62 RAC rally and the January 64 Monte had three bodyshells, none of which were Cooper shells. AJB44B , now at Gaydon, and forever famous for winning the 65 Monte , was crashed heavily on the RAC at the end of 64 and was reshelled into an 850 before the that famous win, WAS THAT CAR AN 850 WITH AN S LOGBOOK, NOT A PROPER CAR

Some things do my head in . rant over!

[ivor badger]

A very interesting read, this thread Two things i'd like to point out



2, Some people just do not 'get' the re-shell bit on race/rally cars, totally different then a normal road car. Two instances spring to mind, the works 997 Cooper 477BBL between the november 62 RAC rally and the January 64 Monte had three bodyshells, none of which were Cooper shells. AJB44B , now at Gaydon, and forever famous for winning the 65 Monte , was crashed heavily on the RAC at the end of 64 and was reshelled into an 850 before the that famous win, WAS THAT CAR AN 850 WITH AN S LOGBOOK, NOT A PROPER CAR

Some things do my head in . rant over!

Exactly, there were stories at the time that works mini shells were viewed as scrap after 4 stages and that works rally cars were built from new shells individually for each event. Works cars on foriegn events were wired to local lighting regulations by Lucas technicians at Abingdon. The comps/ Special tuning dept were on the left immediately on entering the factory gate

Btw, there is really no such thing as an Abingdon mini shell as Abingdon built MGs and always had. MG chassis numbers always began 261 which was the phone number of the factory.

To put the car/reg number situation in perspective. There was a famous privately entered Ford Escort running in the British rally championship in the 70s. I passed it going the other way on the M6 returning from the Scottish rally having been rolled on Tuesday and passed the same registered car on Thursday in Willenhall in immaculate condition.

[Pete]

I am pretty sure the photo of GPH1C at Sebring is 1966, due to the wheelarch spats that were designed and introduced by Abingdon due to a change in the regs, 4.5" rims and R7 racers stuck out slightly on a car with no arches. I have a photo somewhere of a transporter loading Sprites etc for Sebring in 65, and the Cooper is the CCC car 231VPK.

This had crossed my mind when I first saw the photo of GPH and I think you're spot on Steve, schoolboy error from me there ! What threw me was that despite us going Gp5 (wider track + arch extensions etc) in 1966 I'm not that familar with U.S regs and had seen a couple of photos of Sebring cars , one of which I believed to be 1965 with arches on but maybe it's my eyesight...



This one is from '66 I believe (check out the Broadspeed looking car..)



Of course 231 VPK is the '65 car, Browning was mistaken....



Because there wasn't an earlier Sebring race for it to compete at ! I do remember the late Paul Lips was on the trail of this car and had a number of photos. GPH is the '66 car which ties in nicely with it coming back to race at Snetterton in the ETCC and this explains why Paddy couldn't remember another car, because there wasn't one ! I have to say even Warwick struggles to tell one from another after all these years, who can blame them ? Paddy didn't drive LNP that's for sure then, Cooper Car Co supplied the '65 and '66 cars and Abingdon the '67 one for him. Yes it would have been unusual for Paddy to be in a privateer car , but not impossible as he did drive for Vita and Don Moore at home but not for a privateer team at these important races.


As for 129 LNP, I think I've come up with a photo (well spotted Billy !) of it racing at Mid Ohio in 1966 (?), looks like the number on the back (albeit pretty fuzzy !) and RH drive. Driven either by Bob Kimes or Chuck Dietrich who was recorded earlier in this thread as racing it at Nassau. Bob Kimes did have a habit of buying ex works racing Minis from the UK, a couple from Coopers by all accounts.



So we have 129 LNP being reshelled by Arden in August 1964 in the UK between the 4th August Mallory Molyslip Trophy race and September 19th at the Gold Cup, mainly because I suspect Neil's original club racer shell was too cut about to make back to a Gp2 racer so the job was done from scratch using the new shell from Appleyeards and fitted back up with all the standard soundproofing, brocade trim, dash vinyl,boot brackets, bumpers, grille, redrilled bootlid (because the lid was from the donor shell) fully painted Electric Blue, a 1275 engine put back in and a set of Rosepetals on. I would suspect the shell came at quite a discount from BMC ? I can't see any other reason the car would be rebodied, no shunts found between those dates. This car is then raced through '65 , it attended the '65 British Grand Prix here chasing Harry Ratcliffe :



...and then drops off the radar in terms of UK race entries shortly after. Neil remembers selling it to someone in the U.S shortly before Arden prepare a new Gp 5 car for '66 (the introduction of Gp 5 was a surprise to most teams, especially the ones that had just built new cars !!) and Bob Kimes seems to think a UK privateer ran it at the Sebring 4 Hours in early '66 (when GPH 1C raced) but we've yet to find out who the driver was or if it even raced ? Still need to speak to Seeney about this so more is on it's way hopefully. Rachel is also working on clearer shots of it in the U.S and some clarity on who drove and when....

[dbo]

Pete, you're doing one heck of a job on this. I'm sure you have it but here's a shot I forwarded Rachel the other day that I found a while back and had in my collection.


Cheers
Dennis

[Jack of all trades]

The entry list for Sebring;
http://www.racingsportscars.com/entry/S ... 3-26t.html

There is even a picture at the end of this page of a Cooper in white with a black roof with no 55;
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/S ... 3-26t.html

Next to Paddy there are 4 other Cooper entrants, and they call Dietrich Charles and not Chuck (the name chuck and suzy are used as drivers).

Now who was in car 63? Broadspeed sold 4 cars at the end of the 1965, the BOP's went to Holland so that leaves the two Ilford challange cars. Could it be one of them(and what was their registration)??

[Flygirl]

I think Pete is spot on for the Sebring summary. There really isn't any way Paddy could have driven 129 LNP unless he toured the paddock in it!

Some new information has come up, check out this picture from the same roll of film that the rear view of the car is from (and thanks to Randy McConnel for both):



A few clues from this picture make me 100% convinced it is the car I now have:
1. The roll bar has very low mounting points to the rear. These had to be upgraded later on for SCCA, but looking at the original section of the roll bar it appears to be constructed at the same time (other add-ons later were obvious).



2. The mirror on the driver's door is identical.


3. The RH tank is now blanked off, but the cover for that hole looks like it could possibly be the one on the car when I got it:

It makes sense to remove the tank on the driver's side as a second tank would not be required to do the non-endurance type races. And why not take out the driver's side and keep the weight on the opposite side?

The photo also clearly shows the car being #52, which was the same number used at the December 1966 Nassau races. Another really key clue is the logo on the RH fender. It could be a Ring Free Oil logo like the one on this car:


The logo photo was also taken by Randy. Randy said Charles Dietrich was driving the car with this logo on it at this event (an Elva-BMW). I checked race results for Charles and matched them up for this car at a United States Road Racing Championship race at Mid Ohio held August of 1966, but he also raced the same car there in 1967. They may have have had support races for the non-USRRC cars at the same event, and we are trying to locate additional photos, an entry list or results. So between Sebring in March and the Nassau race in December, 129 LNP was racing at Mid-Ohio perhaps in August? Charles drove many other Ring Free cars including the #51 Mini at Sebring in 1966 and 129 LNP at Nassau in 1966. Of the three Ring Free Oil sponsored (owned?) Minis at Sebring that year, the only one I don't have a photo of is the #58 car raced by John Tremblay. The other two are clearly LHD cars and the wrong colour to be 129 LNP. So if 129 LNP was at Sebring, then it is likely that it was driven by John. The car might have been purchased from Steve by whomever was in charge of the Ring Free competition department? The company was certainly very involved in racing during that time and could have had the cash flow to bring a car over from the UK. I wonder what the history is on the other two Ring Free Minis, and where they are now?

The #63 car was driven by George Oulton, he finished 12th behind John Tremblay. From what I have been able to find, here are the car numbers: #50 - Paddy Hopkirk; #63 George Oulton (Red Sliver); #58 John Tremblay; #51 Charles (Chuck) & Suzy Dietrich (light colour, LHD); #55 Roger(Bob) West (White/Black LHD); #54 J.M. Marinelli/Smoky Drolet (white/black LHD); #66 John Willis/John Finger (Black RHD 850cc). There were also two non-starters: John Boniz & Frank Phillips, which I have no car details for.

Still so many questions! As Pete said, I am working on getting more details and will share them as they come up.

[mk1]

What a fantastic thread this is!

Congratulations to Pete for doing such a sterling job in uncovering so much previously lost history & thanks too to everyone else who has helped.

It is forgotten stories like this one that make the MK1 Forum such a unique resource.

Keep up the good work!

Mark F

[Chas Pollet]

I'm Charlie Pollet, the dude that Rachel got into this journey. I am a long time race mechanic working on various cars, but always preferring Minis. Before retiring in 2004, I worked for Joe Huffaker as crew chief on the Huffaker Mini, plus working on other Huffaker cars. We won 9 national championships from 1997 to 2004, which I consider the best time of my life. I was friends with Bob Kimes from back in the 1960's when I started working on Minis and considered him the Mini guru here in the midwest. Before I got sick back in February, I had started to compile information on all of Bob Kimes' Minis and other race cars for a book of some sort. I will be getting back on that soon, I hope.
Now to Rachel's Kimes Mini. If you have any doubt about what the car will look like when finished, check the following link of pictures of her Mini that Andy has raced the past two years. The photos were taken at a race, not a car show. I know this is somewhat off topic, but it is ok with all. Charlie Pollet
http://www.BritishRaceCar.com/RachelNel ... ooperS.htm

[Pete]

Pete, you're doing one heck of a job on this. I'm sure you have it but here's a shot I forwarded Rachel the other day that I found a while back and had in my collection.


Cheers
Dennis

That's Prescott hillclimb May '65. Race cars often did the odd hillclimb between events , I've a few shots of Broadspeed cars at various hillcimbs. I've also found (or my mate Paul has) other photos of LNP in '65 that seem to point to the original shell still being used as a lightweight racer even after the above 'new' Gp2 car (Rachel's) was finished.

[Pete]

Hi Chas, yes many of us have admired the standard of Andy and Rachel's racer, beautifully put together !

[Pete]

Proof that LNP was still in lightweight form (as raced at Mallory in Surf Blue) by August 21st 1964 ( Remember by Sept 19th it was an Electric Blue touring car)



Another shot from the British GP 1965, in front of Harry Ratcliffe and Tony Lanfranchi....



Steve Neal in LBF 595D at Brands '67 at 4.47 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVIv_uOw1-s

(Barrie Williams retires the McKechnie car at 6.40)

[Lord Croker]

Now I feel old, I was at the 1965 Grand Prix But seriously Pete, you have done a magnificent job in getting all this information together, what a superb thread & much respect to you.

[Pete]

Yes can you imagine, a humble saloon car in a British Grand Prix support race nowadays ? It's enough to make Bernie choke on his Bolli and fall off the side of his superyacht !!

Much better to see yet another Porsche supercup race to send everyone off to the merch stalls !

[Pete]

Looks like LNP's last race here was in September '65 at the Oulton Park Gold Cup (Neal was just beaten to 2nd place by Rhodes, so a quick car !), not 100% sure yet. Race teams often offloaded their cars through the back pages of Motoring News and Autosport. If anyone has September '65 to March '66 copies of either can they have a look in the back to see if there's an ad for an Arden. If not I'll have a sift through mine when I get a chance.

We're still not sure whether LNP ran actually ran at Sebring , in fact it's not looking that likely, though maybe a deal was done there to buy both LNP and maybe an ex CCC race car (a Morris) which also ended up with Bob Kimes. Myself and Rachel are also looking into that car whilst we're digging around.Alot of race cars were flogged off around this time as Gp 5 rules came in whilst at the same time Broadspeed packed Minis in, I've loads of ads for Broadspeed Minis from Autosport.

Results for Sebring 4 Hours 1966 :

[Lord Croker]

[quote="Pete"]Yes can you imagine, a humble saloon car in a British Grand Prix support race nowadays ? It's enough to make Bernie choke on his Bolli and fall off the side of his superyacht !!

This I would love to see!

This is such an interesting thread, full of coincidences for me. As a youngster, I lived in Northamptonshire & used to visit Silverstone frequently & remember seeing 129 LNP racing, later I moved to the West Midlands & worked for two British Leyland dealers both of which did business with Stour Valley Motors in Stourbridge & I was involved in Rallying, based only a few miles from Jim Whitehouse's workshop, I now live in a small village in Worcestershire & Matt Neal lives just round the corner from my local pub, so Steve also appears now & then. The wife of one of my friends used to know Norman Seeney & do you know the most frustrating part of all this? I still can't find any more information on this car. But I'll keep trying!

[dr dave]

Who would have thought an innocent little post would bring out the best in mini forensics. I can't wait to see the finished results, Rachel. Any idea if you'll finish it in scca specs or uk specs? A nice problem to have, no doubt. Great and interesting post. Keep the info coming.

dr dave

[Pete]

Pete, you're doing one heck of a job on this. I'm sure you have it but here's a shot I forwarded Rachel the other day that I found a while back and had in my collection.


Cheers
Dennis

This info came from the Prescott / Bugatti Owners Club archivist :

The photograph of the two cars in the paddock was taken at the September 5th 1965 30th National Open Speed Hill Climb at Prescott.

Class 1

No. 1 Equipe Arden (drv. Steve Neal) Austin Cooper 999cc 60.77 secs 2nd

No. 67 Equipe Arden (drv. Steve Neal) Austin Cooper 1293cc 60.64 secs 2nd


I've also uncovered another shot (thanks Paul) in May '65 of the lightweight LNP (ie the original hacked up / stripped out shell) on Prescott hillclimb driven by Roger Hickman. More proof that Neal must have left LNP's number on the bonnet of the original shell whilst also carrying the number, chassis plate, trim, 1275 engine etc onto the new shell of the Arden touring car (No.67). The hillclimbing 'LNP' of Hickman was 999cc and was not entered by Arden. So the original shell went onto the hills and Rachel's car was a 1293 Gp2 fully trimmed Arden touring car from August '64 to the end of '65. I would imagine it went over to the U.S exactly as pictured.

Arden seemed to use over centre toggle clips for the bonnets, positioned in the same place, Hickman's car pictured here also...

http://www.mikehaywardcollection.com/pr ... gGFmCxwbIU

Could this be the original LNP shell ? Front panel's later for starters.....