1963 1071 Cooper S - info wanted

[Pete]

Yes reshelled before a special event is important. Problem I see with this is it has two heritage certs for one car. I guess we don't know when it was swapped/reshelled. Could have even happened in the States. If it is a special car its a shame its lost its reg proof. Honestly genuine should be black and white. I have a California title and heritage certificate for a 1275 S in green fs if someone would like to build a car.

If it was reshelled in the US why has Rachel's shell still got a roof light hole in it ? Do they race cars with roof lights on in the U.S ? Night racing maybe ?

[mniwagn]

When did you find the chassis numbers and reg match, did I miss something? Does any member have access to the chassis number list?

[Pete]

The MCR Mk1 S Registrar has spent years studying and recording all of the production information publicly available at BMIHT Gaydon, so yes all the info is available if you visit Gaydon. We still haven't found a published link between 129 LNP and Rachel's chassis number due to Worcester not recording chassis numbers and Neal not having a record (as far as we know)(that could change) but by a process of elimination of all the Surf Blue Austin 1071's produced at the time Simon has deduced that it could only have been this car from the 32 manufactured to that date. Add that to the list above and OK not absolute proof in your eyes a yet but I suspect we'll find it as we have hardly exhausted all 'lines of enquiry' after only a week of looking into this car.

I respect your cynicism, there's plenty of famous competition cars over here that would fail your stringent testing in a flash but I have to admit I am relishing the day that I can prove it unfounded in this case. And if I'm wrong I will show my arse in Burton's window as we say over here.

[mniwagn]

ah cause above you said it was recorded as having the same chassis number.

[mk1coopers]

Please play nicely Mr wagon, as Pete has pointed out many period race and rally cars had there shells changed at the time, the very nature of what they being used for was always going to lead to accidents and incidents, if they bent one and a new shell was a better option then of course it would have been changed. What you are looking for with these sorts of cars is all the little tell tails from photos / information ect that point to a car being authentic in respects of it doing X Y or Z event, yes it may not be the body shell that the car left the factory in, but it does seem to be (from the evidence thats out there) the shell that was later raced in the UK, did the Monte, and was then sent to the US, so it has a continuous history back to the original car, it wasn't recreated to make a profit out of someone by claiming the ID of a car that was long since gone (as many of them have been), I for one would be delighted to find a car like this one

[mniwagn]

okay no problem

[Pete]

Most of these 50 year old sporting cars that have been raced, rallied and abused from birth in our rather soggy climate are reshells from my many years of observation. This may be a real revelation to someone living in Northern California Mr Wagn but over here quite common knowledge. If all reshelled cars were dismissed as easily as you would like I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be having this little chat now because this forum probably wouldn't exist and if it did would have tumbleweed blowing across it. I wonder if Arden staff used to fart in the general direction of any reshelled race cars in period, damned infidel reshellers and their fake silly cars !

I think I've presented my thoughts about this car quite reasonably, with the odd cheeky comment when you've been on the wrong page but if you want to make it personal then you've picked the wrong forum and if you want to start a thread about your fervent belief in the purity of original shells (what about engine swappers , speedo switchers or trim trashers ? ) then feel free, just don't sabotage this one .

[mniwagn]

I guess we'll let people read the posts and determine what they like. I only asked how you could prove it, A document connecting the chassis to the REG and answer why if it was a reshell done in the 60's they would have the heritage cert for the new shell. Don't you admit you would have different thoughts towards reshells if things were different?

[Ant Hines]

I expect that there are two Heritage Certificates for the car; one related to the chassis number (found probably both on the car and any paperwork related to it) which would have revealed the model (1071 S), colour, build date, dealer, etc... and one, more than likely sourced from the body number on the slam panel, which would not have matched the body number stated on the first Heritage Certificate. Incidentally, I think that most people reading these posts will reach the conclusion that Pete has done an amazing job at pretty much conclusively proving that the car in question is the Arden racer/ Monte rally car.

[Pete]

I have said that I respect Mr Wagn's prodding of this car's credentials, it's important that people do in my opinion and maybe people should have done it more often in the past but I don't really want this thread to descend into the age old coma inducing reshelling debate (especially from somebody who has a shell for sale with no title and a title being offered on here with no shell !) I also don't appreciate Mr Wagn prodding me about my own 1071 (already snipped by the mods sadly) which I have always said has been reshelled, let's stick to the subject if possible.

This race car is what it is and absolutely nobody , especially the owners have made any attempt to mislead anyone or are pretending it's anything other than what we think it is. There's plenty more to come on this car and this subject in general, especially Sebring cars I suspect so let's keep it clean eh Mr Wagn ? We'd all love to find a significant race car that's had it's original shell from new (as several forum members own in fact !) but this isn't one of 'em. Rachel has been open and above board about that. It seems by the details found to have been done before going to the U.S by Arden themselves though which hopefully I can find out more about as the relevant people are still around.

I've had a communication from Warwick Banks who raced GPH 1C at Sebring which is interesting, I'll also post up some more Sebring photos later. All I know is that it's amazing how many special cars ended up in the U.S !

[AustinSuperSeven]

I dont care if it was reshelled into a Riley Elf shell..... what a story and just keep going Pete, just keep going

[Pete]

I've already noticed that the bonnet clips and unusual rear view mirror with the long straight chrome stem is the same on the racer as the rally car on 129 LNP and I very strongly suspected Rachel's shell is indeed the rally shell due to the paint colour found on hers and the roof light hole. Well have a look at the badges on the race car at Oulton Park in August 1964...



They're all over the place, not straight, much lower down and further to the left than the factory put them.

Now have a look at the badges on Rachel's car as raced in the U.S by Bob Kimes...



Pretty good match eh ?

Maybe it was reshelled before that Oulton photo then ? More to come....

[mniwagn]

Impressive collection of pictures!! What's it say above Austin cooper? She said the other shell was made August 4th 64.

[fricsman]

Amazing story! I'm loving this thread. Keep digging Pete, you're doing a great job.

[Pete]

to even think that this makes it Arden-ish is ridiculous. ...sounds like such a stretch to say its anything famous off a couple details ..... its all in the story!

Still think that Kevin ?

The Oulton photo above is actually from 19th September 1964 and the car's now in a new coat of Electric Blue compared to the earlier shot of it being Surf Blue now with it's wonky badges. This suggests to me it's just been reshelled into the August '64 Tweed Grey shell from Appleyards. I've had a better gander at the photos of Rachel's car now and it's definitely an 850 shell as "she" has transparently pointed out but a fair amount effort has been put into making it look absolutely pucker (for a race car) after it's been painted Electric Blue/Silver. All the soundproofing and (top) dash vinyl has been refitted, even down to the soundproofing under the rear shelf which is over the top of the Arden paint. Original Surf Blue boot brackets put back in in correct (ish) positions, floor cut out done with slightly wonky holes for the remote mounting bolts, brocade trim and wonky badges obviously.

I have been looking for race entries for Neal prior to this which still needs finishing but I did note that at Mallory for the Molyslip Trophy on 4th August 1964 his car was still Surf Blue (1275) as pictured on this thread and by Oulton on 19th September it was now Electric Blue (above) and very tidy indeed with Rosepetals , bumpers back on, albeit with wonky badges. In between these two events this car was evidently reshelled, and the only other race I've found he entered as yet was on 13th September at Mallory for the Molyslip Trophy where there was no mention of him in the race in Autosport so no clues there but there was an almighty pile up in the second saloon race for which he wasn't on the entry list (not always 100% reliable). I do have photos of the car still racing in this guise on and off in 1965 until nearer the end of the year.

[guru_1071]

your going to get a 'golden deerstalker' award after this bit of research peter!!!

[Pete]

Great idea, I think I'd suit that ! Worth it though , even putting up with Kevin's rudeness to discover Arden's first Cooper S and especially for such a nice owner.

[billycooper]

As a previous owner of a 1071, sold last year , I've kept a very close eye on this thread ..... Simply awesome story, I'm sure Rachel is thrilled in what Peter has found out, and to me there is no doubt this is the car, I must have read the thread ten times !, and login on when ever I can to see the updates.

Well done, keep it going !

Can't wait for you to get started on the Spanish car !, but with this one and all the work you put into Shelsley .....
I can wait !

Apparently KDK was at Shelsley, now there must be a good story, you could do this full time Pete !

[Pete]

Apparently KDK was at Shelsley, now there must be a good story, you could do this full time Pete !

What do you mean could do ? Without Paul C and Simon W it'd be a darn sight more difficult. Yes Trevor kindly brought KDK 320F to Shelsley , a car that has lots of stories to tell, some fascinating original details on that car, Trevor is a very lucky boy (and a thoroughly nice chap). I'll ask him if we can do a photo thread on that one at some point.

There are other great period competition cars out there still to break cover, one very local to me which is just as interesting and as significant as this one

[RS6]

Keep digging Pete, you're doing a great job.

You should be commended Pete - this is outstanding research. I rather suspect you may get the last laugh.