4 wheel drive

[Spider]

Tim, thanks for putting up the link! That trip was epic to say the least, but I'll refraining from going OT.

Hey Teckeldog, you seemed to have ID'd many forseeable problems with the Ant gearbox, not that I am in anyway familiar with them. I always had thought they were all synchro, so there you go. Crash on 1st? Seems a bummer, but no doubt, had they gone in to production, it wouldn't have taken them long to go all synchro.

No doubt you'd seen that the 4WD Moke gearbox had a one piece Bevel Gear with the final drive CW. They were made as 2 pieces and lazer welder (or so it was relayed to me) togther. I parted the old CW off in the lathe and then when did the up-rated conversion, bolted the new CW, through the bevel gear and into the hemisphere. Would have loved to make it such that a Quiafe would fit, but with that bevel gear, no matter what I looked at I just couldn't do it.

My own design philosophy seems similar to yours in that one criteria is to make a few body modifications as is possible with such a conversion. I've seen a few Moke Bodies on Suzuki Chassis's and while finely executed engineering jobs, I fair to see the point with these. Sorry, I don't see them as a Moke, they would drive nothing like one! I think there was also a Subaru getting about topped with a Moke shell. Full points to these guys for there attempts and they do have driving vehicles, but I feel it is largely lost in the translation.

The Ant Powertrain does seem rather large to try to shoe-horn in to a Moke shell and while I admire your attempts, I'm not sure that you'd get it in there, more than happy to be proven wrong here!!!!! The Ant, from what I understand, was not Mini based, like the Moke was, it seems it was purpose built from the outset with far fewer compromises than the Moke, these are borne out with it's awesome front suspension - torsion bar and lovely long travel. If you can get it in there, were you planning on using the Ant front suspension?

And on that, have you any details / pics of the Ant's rear suspension? Also, have you got the gear, hi/lo and final drive ratios of the Ant gear?

Thanks in advance.

Glued to the thread,
Spider

[Tim]

The though occurs to me that the foot wells in the Ant must have been quite narrow. The 'transmission' tunnel would need to be pretty wide to accommodate the extra volume of the transfer housing and the torsion bars, and I assume there must have been something solid for the ends of the torsion arms to mount to, so some kind of subframe in there as well. Or did they have a full chassis, like a proper 4WD?

Tim

[4XMOKE]

Darn it! I wrote a huge piece last night in reply to Spider, then lost it when i went to submit it. I hate computers...........
The Ant footwells are narrow as is the tunnel, which if anything is rather deep. The footwells are narrow because the sills are angled in, the tunnel is narrow because the only things in it are the prop and the linkage for 4WD, the transfer box is in front of the toe board and angled the same, although the pre-production box is rubber mounted here, whereas the developement box was direct bolted. The gearchange, high/lo linkage, steering column, torsion bars all go through the bulkhead above the tunnel. Cabin space is a little cluttered below dashboard level! The torsion bars mount to the tunnel via brackets down either side of it, but bear in mind, these bodies are not tissue paper, they are seriously thick and galvanized. The remains of the body i have is crumpled beyond all hope having been rescued from two different scrap heaps and a farm bramble bush, but there is no rust on it and no perforated panels, proper armour plated vehicles these! No chassis required, probably stiffer than a Freelander, they just bracketed bits onto the body where they were required. There's not much like an Ant!!!! They're full of strengths and weaknesses, clever designs and complete oversights. Another ten years of manufacturing technology progress and nothing would have touched it. Great shame they cancelled the project.
Working now, second attempt to Spider later.

Point to consider; BMC Britain DID make at least one 4WD single engined Moke in the sixties, this was the donor for the ST Autocross clubman. They broke that several times and replaced transmission parts, so there must have been spares or more vehicles. I've never seen a picture of that Moke or much spec about it. Anyone out there got any pics or info?

[Tim]

Thanks for the explanation Teckeldog, it really sounds like it will be a task to fit it into a Moke.

Tim

[4XMOKE]

Provided I can anchor the body shell sufficiently, then given a decent length of run up, with ample approach speed it'll slip straight in!
Back for serious comment later.

[251 ENG]

Techeldog , did you used to work at Rover ?

[Spider]

Point to consider; BMC Britain DID make at least one 4WD single engined Moke in the sixties, this was the donor for the ST Autocross clubman. They broke that several times and replaced transmission parts, so there must have been spares or more vehicles. I've never seen a picture of that Moke or much spec about it. Anyone out there got any pics or info?

I only learned of this myself in very recent times. I thought for a long time that the single engine 4WD moke was an Austrailan idea, but in fact Issy had patented drawings dating back to around the war (or just after) for not only this concept, but the basic moke concept too (yes, the moke pre-dates the mini). The sketches that were patented appear in Jon Pressnel's Book. From memory, the UK single engine 4WD moke dates back to around the time of the twini moke, it apparently ended up being used as a tug within the factory until it was raided for the ST Clubman. I have corresponded with Basil Wales about the 4WD Clubman. He did tell me a little about it, but he's not a technical person and he couldn't say much as he'd just been contracted to Mini Magazine to write a column for them, so it may get talked about there in some future issue.

In the very late days of the Australian Moke production, Leyland did very nearly market the 4WD Moke, very near. I do have a couple of pre-release advertisements for it (with indicitave pricing), that was how close it came. Late in 1979, they released a Face Lift model, while it did look the same as the previous models, was in detail quite different. This was done to accomodate the 4WD running gear and also to commonise with current production parts from the UK rather than low volume local parts.

Bugger when you loose posts!! I don't know how many times that has happened to me.

[4XMOKE]

Oh hell! lost another one!!!! been on and off writing that one all evening, does it time out or something? went to submit and had to log back in, in doing that my post disappeared........ going to bed, half past mid night, will try yet again tomorrow. Maximum Bu&&erance Factor!

[Spider]

Oh hell! lost another one!!!! been on and off writing that one all evening, does it time out or something? went to submit and had to log back in, in doing that my post disappeared........ going to bed, half past mid night, will try yet again tomorrow. Maximum Bu&&erance Factor!

Do it in word or note pad, then once you've got it, copy and paste. Bugger mate

[4XMOKE]

slap it with haste? right ho, I'll try that..............
It nearly had a brick through it's screen last night! Me and mr laptop will be having a little discussion about matters today. Hopefully you'll get a reply..... soon!

[4XMOKE]

Sleeves rolled up and going for it...... the bitch is having it this time!
Spider; Crash first is a proper pain, I just don't believe it's strong enough.I've never heard of anyone converting to four syncro, you'd just swap the box entirely, wouldn't you! Wouldn't you... ? I can't, got to keep the casing. Really don't want to run three syncro, got to have a serious look at changing to four sync/ dog box/ five speed/ KAD five speed dog (this all fits where a four sync does, with direct top, not overdrive) a fifth cog could be very useful for alot of the intended driving. All comments and suggestions greatfully received!!!!!!
"Quaiffe diffs rule!" Well, actually Torsens do, by who ever makes them. Any experience in a Moke? I want to go Torsens at both ends if I possibly can, even if that entails a redesign of the front diff. So much stronger, and avoids getting stuck from being cross axled, which is very likely in a Moke !
I'd like to run with as much of the Ant suspension as is possible, and mount the engine/trans/suspension in the same manner as the Ant. Worried about failure of the torsion bars though due to age and they're already worn on the trunnions. Coil overs might be a better bet, when has a coil over completely collapsed and left you on a bump stop? I'm going to weigh some of the Ant components and post the weights, some parts really are just too heavy by far! Top suspension arms, torsion bar arms, torsion bars themselves, all ridiculously heavy. If redesigns are possible, I certainly will !!!
FYI seperate longitudinal torsions on the front, single shared transverse torsion at the rear. Will get some pics of these parts and a few of the underside of the shell.
I have a list of all gear ratios which i shall post, diff to prop shaft and back to diff is 2.42:1 19T:46T I know this one from memory as i spent a year looking for a car with that final drive ratio........ There isn't one!
Will shake head around and spew out some more information for debate.
Best post this before it disappears into the abyss !
Cheers all

[4XMOKE]

Another point before my computer turns into a pumpkin.
The Ant box is angled to match the toe board of the Ant, the Moke toe board is of similar angle. The rear of the box cover the area of the toe board where the tunnel starts, easy enough for the prop as it sticks out the back of the box, but.... the Ant sills are angled in with no outer sill, this leaves room to run the exhaust manifold horizontally across the back of the head and through the inner wing then along the sill. Can't do that on the Moke, need to get it up the tunnel, but oh look, someone's put a great big gearbox at the start of the tunnel ! going around the box and back into the tunnel leaves the pipe hanging down, I dont want a stainless stack up through the bonnet! I don't want a 1970s custom chrome side pipe! I don't want to cut the body. Something somewher has to give.......
Just remind me why I'm doing this !

[4XMOKE]

Wheels! I forgot to mention wheels.....
One of the more minor considerations at this point but essential to plan for. When I brought the shell over (it was a personal import from Australia, Northern mini parts if i remember right, bought on the strength of four polaroid pics!) I bought five sunraysia wheels with it, as at that point I only had the developement box and was going to run with mini suspension and hubs. When I bought the second box and all the suspension it then meant that that the sunraysias wouldn't fit as the Ant uses 1100 spec hubs. Damn it I thought, I really like the look of sunraysias, despite hating weller eight spokes! So without giving it too much thought, i sold them........ I then intended to have some alloys, Speedline most likely, machined to the correct spec, but, I'm now thinking about borrowing a sunraysia from a mate and reviewing the whole situation. If the offsets are close enough, then it's only a matter of increasing the boss size and changing the pcd. Simple.
However, have you ever seen the offset on an 1100 ? !!!

[ivor badger]

However, have you ever seen the offset on an 1100 ? !!!

Which is why they have a really strange pcd to stop people fitting them to other vehicles.

[Spider]

Hey Teckledog, got there in the end! Sorry mate, I think I may have confused you re 3 / 4 synchro bit. I felt that as an evolutionary product, BMC would have produced them with an all sychro box. Gee, to convert a 3 synchro to 4 is a huge job and frankly not worth doing, considering you can get one off the shelf!!

A dog box for this application I would think is not really what you'd want either, Synchromesh I think would be pretty hard to go past, be it 4 or 5 speed.

Haha, diffs, it's almost like the age old forum question "What colour should I paint my car?" it's a personal choice thing there mate. I've tried a number of them now (for front drive at least) and I like the Quaifes and it seems you like the Torsens - either way, they run rings around a dumb stock one!! Yeah, when I do my own 4WD Moke, I'll have something with a bit more 'bite' in the rear end, but most likely a Quaife up front.

The Ant Gear you have must have had a fair bit of use considering the wear you've mentioned on the torson bars. Yeah, that is their down side, at least if you were to break a coil, it wouldn't fall on it's face!!

You could run the exhaust out the inner wing, under the wheel guard, then through the side box, how it would exit the side box at the rear could be interesting though, maybe something that could be considered with the rear suspension?

It seems you've quite a bit of an Ant, could I trouble you to throw up some pics?

Are you intending this for use on paved or loose surfaces?

A good mate of mine worked at NMP for quite a number of years. He's never mentioned the Ant, then again, he doesn't mention anything not mini specific at all! I've just dropped him a note to see if he can shed any light on that end of it.

Oh, ever looked at the off-set of a Metro Wheel? even more than a Morris 1100!!

[4XMOKE]

A dog box will stop the mrs taking off in it!
it may end up that a four sync case gets modified to Ant spec to fit the transfer box, but that is no walk in the park either......
This will be a road registered, multi surface vehicle. Obviously the majority of driving will be tarmac, but it's no use having dangly bits at the back if they disappoint in use or you don't have the balls to use them for fear of showing yourself up.
Slip of the keyboard, it seems i suggested quaiffes and torsens to be one and the same, they're not as you know. The quaiffe is simpler by design being a simple planetary diff with friction of gears to allow limited slip, am i right? the torsen uses worms and wheels to create limited slip by gear angles, worm will drive wheel, wheel won't drive worm principal.
Exhaust in side pod? Mmm..... loss of camping storage space! Did consider putting a tunnel along the underside of the pannier, but then things might get troublesome at the rear end again. And I DON'T want a side pipe!
Must go walk the dog and work. back later

[Spider]

Ah, I see. Mate, A dog box will be a dog to use! Especially when in 4WD. Just my 2c on that.

Now, Quaife have worms fitted and so do some Torsens, but inevitably, they have their own characteristics. Some Torsens have clutch plates though. For paved street use, IMO, these type of diffs can be a pig, although some guys do like them.

Quaife http://www.quaife.co.uk/differentials
Torsen http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction_Co ... rticle.pdf

Mate friend who worked at NMP doesn't know of the Ant, however, he did also say that it could have been there before his time there, he'll ask Henry Drapier next time he sees him , not that this is any help here!!

[4XMOKE]

Not sure I'd want you to try and save the day disarming a bomb...... you've got your wires crossed! My Moke came from Oz, not the Ant, that was rescued from a farm in Shropshire and a garage in Droitwich (body and trans got seperated) and thinking about it, not sure it was NMP although I have spoken to Henry about his crownwheels and parts. It might have been British Heritage Parts, is that right?
Quaiffe vs Torsen; never seen a Torsen with clutch plates, I think you have that wrong. Salisburys use friction plates and ramp angles to papply pressure to them. Torsen relies on the principle of worm driving wheel but with the right helix angle the wheel won't drive the worm. Quaiffes use a helical planetary diff but from what i can figure rely on the torque reaction of the planets against the suns to push them out into the anulus thus causing sufficient drag to semi lock the diff, there seems to be some elements of darg across the helical planets also which combine to give a similar affect to the torsen, but not the same. (I think, and stand to be corrected about the quaiffe)
Going digging around in my stores for other bits and pieces tomorrow, will try to get pics of the Ant body and get the rear torsion bar out too. If I have time I'll lay them out on the workshop floor and get pics of that too.
Might dig out some scrap four sync bits and see how much hammering it will take to get them in or how much gassing and welding is involved to convert a four sync casing to Ant transfer box spec.
Fun and games for a saturday then!

[4XMOKE]

BTW. What is the provisional spec for your 4x4 Moke?

[4XMOKE]

Ah, now we have a problem, or problems..... We're both right and both wrong!
Quaife's diff is parallel planetary and the planets run in cut outs in the body of the diff, not on shafts or on bearings. When one wheel loses traction, the reaction within the diff gears applies pressure outward on the planets and the drag caused limits the slip.
Torsens work on the principle of worm and wheel as i stated before. However they also do a diff with friction plates for good reason.......
Whilst both of these diffs provide a very good limited slip action they both require some drag from the slipping wheel to work, apart from the torsen with integeral friction plates to pre drag the system. Without this friction neither of the diffs will work with one wheel lifted and therefore giving zero drag, it'll just spin like an ordinary open diff !!!!!
In conclusion, quaife or torsen for good limited slip without snatchy performance like a cam and pawl or salisbury friction diff, but the only one to provide smooth action and still drive with one wheel in the air is the torsen T-2R Racemaster.
Now, if we could figure out a way to fit ABS then we could run traction control as on the Freelander. Trust me, this works really well, all the smoothness and steerability of open diffs but traction kept due to braking the wheel that's trying to spin. My V6 Freelander was far more capable off road than my Mercedes G-Wagon which had no centre diff and diff locks both ends. You can actually initiate a wheelspin situation by driving with the difflocks in, slightest cornering action will result in windup that has to release somewhere, thus at least one, if not two wheels start to loose traction and slip, and it's difficult on the steering with difflocks in, if you drive with them out, you constantly have open diffs and risk loosing traction again! The Freelander runs open diffs all the time so it's easy to steer and doesn't windup, but both axles are monitored by the traction control and kept in check accordingly. Likewise, the viscous coupling in the propshaft distributes torque to the rear without winding the front up. Did you know the Freelander runs different ratios in the front and rear diffs to pre load the viscous? It's on the biting point all the time because of that. Good system if you ask me!
Austin Ant or Moke 4x4 with traction control would have been a fantastic machine!
Does that clear up the diff issue?
Torsen don't make a T-2R to fit the mini