998 Cooper homologation

[Vegard]

Was the 998 Cooper ever homologated with 4,5" inch wheels? If so could I use 4,5" reversed Cooper steels?

My friend is now running standard 3,5" steels which really are too narrow for those tyres. Have any of you got any experience on tyre pressures on such narrow rims?

[LMM76C]

I think so (in Group2 only of course). Wheel arch extensions were. Problem is the copy of the papers on line elsewhere on this site is too faint to see the wording but appears to refer to an increase in track for the option wheel. Photo appears to be reversed rim S wheel.
We used a 998 Mini Internationally in period with reverse rim 4.5 wheels but the papers for the 998 Mini (dry) in Group2 actually contained a lot more items than the 998 Cooper (wet only - never homologated dry in any Group) did.
What are you planning to compete in that requires homologation? It might help suggest ways round it.

[Vegard]

It's a Pre65 FIA car racing in the sub 1000cc class. Yes we know that a 970 is the only real choice, bu it's a cost issue.

[steady eddie]

It's a Pre65 FIA car racing in the sub 1000cc class. Yes we know that a 970 is the only real choice, bu it's a cost issue.

Hey Vegard how are you?

Think I have a set of papers for a 998cc Cooper somewhere, I will look them out but off to the Goodwood Revival in the morning so will be next week before I have the time, will get back to you then

Eddie

[LMM76C]

Was the 998 Cooper homologated at all pre-65?

4.5 wheels appear to have been first homologated for the 998 Cooper in 1969. That would align with some other things discussed (on here?) - that a number of items were homologated for the 998 Cooper just before the 970S ran out of homologation.

Many 998 Coopers were used on International rallies in period simply because the 970S was no longer available and so few had been built. Creating a new car from a shell was not common then.

I can't at this stage recall pressures with 3.5 rims but there was a problem in rallies when radials began to be used. Bead breaking was common with sideways driving on the loose and tubes were normally used together with higher pressures.

[Mini4Ever]

Was the 998 Cooper homologated at all pre-65?

That's my question as well and I have strong doubts...

[AlexG]

Hi Vegard!

I don´t know if that helps, but I habe a copy of the FIA sheet 5284 (Mini 1000) dating from 1969. But thats group 1 what i´ve seen. Anyway, if somebody needs it please drop me a pm.

Best regards Alex

[Mini4Ever]

PM sent

[Mini4Ever]

Alex, thanks for your email. I tried to answer it, but it bounced back with an error saying that the message could not be delivered. In my email I wrote the following:

Thanks for the homologation form! What is nice on this homologation form it that the homologation basically extends to the Mk 3 Mini 1000. I noted however that it is of a standard 998cc, not the 998cc Cooper. Do you happen to know whether the 998cc Cooper was homologated as well?

[LMM76C]

Alex, thanks for your email. I tried to answer it, but it bounced back with an error saying that the message could not be delivered. In my email I wrote the following:

Thanks for the homologation form! What is nice on this homologation form it that the homologation basically extends to the Mk 3 Mini 1000. I noted however that it is of a standard 998cc, not the 998cc Cooper. Do you happen to know whether the 998cc Cooper was homologated as well?

As I have already said above, the 998 Cooper was homologated (Hydrolastic only) separately from (and much earlier than) the 998 Mini (which was not around until a lot later than the time the 998 Cooper was homologated). The 998 Cooper homologation papers are on the non-forum part of this web site but are a particularly poor copy and many dates, including the initial homologation date, are illegible. I strongly suspect the initial homologation date was well into 1965 and was for Group1 (5000 off) and was not an "interim" homologation for Group2 only (1000 off) pending Gp1 homologation when enough had been built (all Gp1 cars were automatically homologated in Gp2 too). What is certain is that the 998 Cooper was homologated by the time of the 1965 RAC Rally but I'm sure it was much earlier in 65.

The 998 Mini, like the 1275 S, had dry suspension (and a lot of other stuff like S brakes) added by homologation amendment. I'm sure the 998 Cooper never did.
The situation that later arose was that, if you wanted to enter a 998 car in Gp1, you called it a Cooper and had to use hydrolastic suspension to be able to use twin carbs. If you wanted to enter in Gp2 (after the changes that allowed free induction), you probably called it a 998 Mini so that you could use dry suspension and S brakes in addition to twin carbs (a Gp1 998 Mini would have to have one carb).

[Mini4Ever]

Excellent! Thanks for that pointer, I wasn't aware of this one being in the main section of the site.

[LMM76C]

http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.u ... papers.htm

Note that the 998 Cooper papers shown are the new papers that had to be submitted for every model for the new Appendix J that commenced 1 Jan 66. Therewould have been earlier papers that I was referring to. These 998 Cooper papers seem to do it the other way ie, Gp2 first and Gp1 later. The 998 Cooper was definitely homologated in Gp1 in the post 1.1.66. Appendix J, either by further new papers or an amendment to these to extend them to Gp1.

[jb14p]

Don't know if this helps, but the 998 cooper was first homologated on 11th April 1964 - Homologation number 1298. It was homologated with dry suspension with hydrolastic as an alternative slightly later. A LSD was added in April 1965. The 998 cooper was then homologated again on 1st Jan 1966 - Homologation No 5013, which included more parts, but not of much use as you are looking at FIA Pre 65!

[KennethDK]

Interesting info

BTW.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

12.09.1959 - 1047 Austin 7 (Mini 850)
12.09.1959 - 1048 Minor (Mini 850)
01.01.1966 - 5027 Mini 850

11.04.1964 - 1299 Mini Cooper 970 S
01.03.1968 - 1515 Mini Cooper 970S

09.05.1963 - 1201 Mini Cooper S 1071

11.04.1964 - 1300 Mini Cooper S 1275
01.01.1966 - 5028 Mini Cooper S 1275 (Mk2+Mk3)

31.10.1961 - 45 Mini Cooper 997 (never seen or heard of this - GT class?)
16.01.1962 - 1095 Mini Cooper 997
11.04.1964 - 1298 Mini Cooper 998 (jb14p - see above)
01.01.1966 - 5013 Mini Cooper 998

01.04.1971 - 5405 Mini Clubman 1275GT
01.01.1994 - 5502 Mini Cooper S 1275 (Grp. A+N)
01.01.1997 - 5560 Mini Cooper S 1275 (Grp. A+N)

Regards

Kenneth

[YMJ]

Julius Thurgood's Mini spec for his TC63 series is worth looking at (I'll see if I can dig it out)but it only covers his particular pre-1963 series. He still insists on 3.5" wheels though, which is clearly not good enough from a tyre wear point-of-view. He does however allow S brakes which is, just as clearly, very sensible both from a stopping and availability angle.

[Vegard]

Julius Thurgood's Mini spec for his TC63 series is worth looking at (I'll see if I can dig it out)but it only covers his particular pre-1963 series. He still insists on 3.5" wheels though, which is clearly not good enough from a tyre wear point-of-view. He does however allow S brakes which is, just as clearly, very sensible both from a stopping and availability angle.

Are you saying that the 998 Cooper can run S brakes pre 65?

[sandman]

Vegard,
Keep in mind that not all series in the UK run according to App.K regs. - some just make up their own.

[tintoptom]

Interesting thread!

So if you had a pre '65 998 cooper prepared to appendix K - which series would you be able to race in in the UK?

As has been said a 970 would be the choice but with cost as the big issue. Competitiveness obviously being the potential issue with the 998! How do you reckon it would square up against the imps, abarths, etc?

Tom

[guru_1071]

Vegard,
Keep in mind that not all series in the UK run according to App.K regs. - some just make up their own.

my car ran under the 'swifty says its ok' regs in june

[irlmin]

Old thread resurrected , can anyone answer if 'S' brakes were homologated for use on a 998 Cooper MK2 in any format ie Gp1 or GP 2 ? I feel like being able to stop the 998 on an upcoming event
G