Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

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winabbey
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by winabbey »

1071 S wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:11 amMany years ago, during an early London Sydney marathon, a spectator Cooper S drove up the rally route the wrong way. In the subsequent head-on, the navigator of the rally prepared Citroen was killed. The Mini driver suffered a cut hand because his wooden steering wheel disintegrated...(his passenger was uninjured).
This is how the Cooper S ended up. You can see the driver's seat belt hanging down.

If you want to see images of the Citroen I suggest you do a Google search.

London to Sydney Cooper S Citreon crash.jpg
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by cobolman »

winabbey wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:19 am As the frontal BMC crash test photos below show, the steering column pivots up via the bracket securing it to the parcel shelf and doesn't spear into the chest of the driver. The power unit slides under the floor and not into the passenger compartment.
That's an astonishing series of pics. Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by mab01uk »

Sabotage at the London-to-Sydney marathon? 17th December 1968
Fifty years after a stunning conclusion to the gruelling London-to-Sydney road race, shocking allegations have emerged about what really happened to the leading Citroen, writes John Smailes.
"Driving with Belgian ace Lucien Bianchi, winner of the Le Mans 24 Hour race only two months before, the Frenchman was in sight of victory. The pair had kept their lightweight Citroen DS21, a real rocket, in touch with the lead all the time. They’d been third at Bombay, and across Australia had kept their head, as a firestorm of desperate competition burst out around them. That tactic had delivered them outright first, but it was tenuous.
At midnight on the last day of competition, just 12 points separated the top six competitors. Bianchi and Ogier’s gap was only two minutes, and each minute was worth a point. It was too close to call, and there were 694 competitive kilometres remaining. Bianchi, the lead driver, took the wheel. Formula One driver, sports car ace, rally expert – he was masterful that night.
When the team reached Hindmarsh Station, the last competitive stage on the near 17,000-kilometre journey, they were 11 minutes ahead. Bianchi had massively consolidated his lead. It had been a night of legend, a fitting climax to a glorious adventure. It was the expectation of all crews that the real marathon had finished and that they would now cruise to the finish. Ogier took over and a tired Bianchi settled down in the right-hand seat of their left-hand-drive car.
It was early morning, just coming up to 8:00am, and they had two hours and one minute to cover the distance to the time control outside Nowra, an average speed of less than 80 kilometres per hour. Seventeen kilometres back from the control was Tianjara Creek, the last obstacle on the course. Ogier cleared it, not gently but with spray flying. It was an act of celebration.
Just moments before, a white Mini Cooper S drove unchallenged through the control point at Nowra with two young men on board. Incredibly, it set off the wrong way, in the opposite direction to the oncoming competition cars. The marathon did not close roads and nobody at control stopped them.
Two kilometres down the road from control was John Gowland, manager of the Australian Ford team. “I heard, then saw, the Mini coming,” he said. “I stepped out on the road, waving my hands at him, but he swerved around me and kept going.” Gowland saw and heard nothing more. “Later, Andrew Cowan [in a Hillman Hunter] came through followed by Paddy Hopkirk [Austin 1800].”
There was no Citroen....
Two kilometres after the water splash, Jean-Claude Ogier had been approaching a right-hand bend. It was a big sweeper with room for two cars to squeak past each other. “I was in the centre of the road,” Jean-Claude told me in Marseille, his memory of that moment and his attention to detail still intense. “Then the Austin [Mini] jumped to our side.”
The crash was catastrophic. With a massive tearing of metal and not much energy absorption, both cars folded back to their firewalls, trapping their right-hand occupants. The Mini caught fire. No one saw the crash and no one was in earshot."
More here:-
https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/sa ... y-marathon

Paddy Hopkirk saved lives, but lost the race…
In 1968, at the epic 10,000 mile London-Sydney Marathon, Hopkirk gallantly gave up any chance of victory on the penultimate stage to rescue the Bianchi-Ogier team then in the lead, whose Citroën DS had just collided head-on with a Mini Cooper S on a road supposedly closed to traffic. The crash was catastrophic. With a massive tearing of metal and not much energy absorption, both cars folded back to their firewalls, trapping their right-hand occupants. Hopkirk and his crew (Alec Poole and Tony Nash) were first upon the scene and stopped to extinguish the flames on both cars in the accident and to help the trapped Lucien Bianchi out of his car.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 3961467414

Image

"Three months and fourteen days after his marathon crash, Lucien Bianchi, still recovering from his injuries, crashed his 3.0-litre Autodelta V8 Alfa Romeo 33/3 prototype while testing for his Le Mans defence. He died instantly."
Last edited by mab01uk on Sat Jan 18, 2025 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by Polarsilver »

TV News had feature about these" AI Traffic Cameras" handing out hundreds of Fines ( back door Taxation ) to Motorists who are on their Phones or Not Wearing Seatbelts .. wonder what the situation would be with a car without needing seat belts to be fitted due to its age ..would AI recognise that the car of that Historic Vehicle age therefore would be outside of Seatbelt Legislation.. suppose we will need to wait & see :roll:

Good on Paddy .. today they would be given dispensation as they have done in the current Dakar.
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by cobolman »

Polarsilver wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 10:03 am ..would AI recognise that the car of that Historic Vehicle age therefore would be outside of Seatbelt Legislation.
According to the latest issue of Practical Classics (March 2025), page 10, a segment titled "No seatbelt? You're nicked":
AI Cameras will issue fines even to non-seatbelt fitted classics.
Police have confirmed that owners of classic cars that re not originally fitted with seat belts would need to contest automatically issued penalties for not wearing them. AI cameras are now being used to detect drivers who flout the law on belts and are automatically issuing offenders with penalty notices without distinguishing netween pre-1965 classics - which aren't legally required to have seat belts fitted - and more modern vehicles.

Police forces are encouraging owners to get in touch with them if they feel that a penalty has been issued incorrectly. Thames Valley Police told PC that they would always encourage vehicle owners to wear seat belts, even where the type of vehicle meant that the legislation wasn't legally enforceable. PC understands that the cameras are now being rolled out all over the UK.
To paraphrase: The AI cameras will nick you for not wearing a seatbelt, even if you're driving a pre-1965 car that isn't legally required to have them. You have to contest the charge if you don't think you're liable.

My opinion: The onus should be on the authorities to *prove* that an offence has been committed. It shouldn't be on the driver to prove their innocence. This is just lazy administration and the sooner it's redressed, the better.
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by Peter Laidler »

GOOD series of photos from Winn and the last photo admirably shows that while the seat belt anchorage has held, alas, the structure that it's fixed to has failed. It's just peeled away, spot welds an' all!

A textbook example showing that you can't defeat the laws of physics. Inertia rules! The 10 stone (?) wearer was still traveling forwards at the crash speed. Wish I was still teaching. That would be one of the photos passed around on a Friday for student comments
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by hanlminiman »

Peter Laidler wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 1:58 pm A textbook example showing that you can't defeat the laws of physics. Inertia rules! The 10 stone (?) wearer was still traveling forwards at the crash speed. Wish I was still teaching. That would be one of the photos passed around on a Friday for student comments
Exactly. When I had an accident incident on a test on a Historic Regularity rally a decade or two ago I wasn't wearing my full harness as an inertia lap/diagonal allowed me more movement, luckily my daughter who was navigating was. The ratchet mounting point of my seat belt pulled the metal away. Luckily the sump guard saved the day when I T-Boned the other competitor in a much bigger car. Didn't even break the headlamp glass but made a mess of the nearside wing.
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by winabbey »

Peter Laidler wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 1:58 pm GOOD series of photos from Winn and the last photo admirably shows that while the seat belt anchorage has held, alas, the structure that it's fixed to has failed. It's just peeled away, spot welds an' all!

A textbook example showing that you can't defeat the laws of physics. Inertia rules! The 10 stone (?) wearer was still traveling forwards at the crash speed. Wish I was still teaching. That would be one of the photos passed around on a Friday for student comments
Just to be clear, that photo is part of a series demonstrating the testing done by BMC Australia to seat belt mounting points. It is not the result of a 10 stone wearer travelling forward in an actual collision. It may have been a "test to destruction" whereby the spot welds peeled away long after the design criteria had been met, or it may have resulted in extra attention being given to this area during vehicle assembly, or even a change in design.

Another shot of the test showing the turret collapsing as a result of the pneumatic ram pulling on the B pillar seat belt upper mounting point.

Morris 1100 Seat Belt Mounting Test 2.jpg
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by Peter Laidler »

I was merely saying that it was a good photo to emphasise the point I make. We can all see that it was a test-rig strength test by the hydraulic puller in place.........
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Re: Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

Post by gs.davies »

I briefly drove my car without belts as I got close to the end of the rebuild. It really didn't feel right, and whilst it would have technically been legal, seemed wrong and so I dug them up and refitted them. Hopefully I never have to test them in anger but it's belted for me, no question.
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