Seatbelts - Retrofit or Not?

[cobolman]

Searching for opinions here:

Cars registered prior to 1965 (I think) did not legally require seatbelts to be fitted.

Would you retrofit seatbelts to a pre-1965 Mini?

ps: Not that this should affect your opinion but, I saw an article in Practical Classics about Police Forces using cameras to issue PCNs to drivers for not wearing seatbelts. This includes those driving cars registered before 1965. The Police are aware that these cars do not legally require seatbelts and this can be easily deduced from the car details. However, the Police advise that motorists of such cars WILL still get PCNs and must appeal them in the usual way. In other words, they can't be bothered to do the admin - you have to do it <sigh>

[Polarsilver]

Belts fitted to all my classics even though they are build date not required .. another interesting thought is i have not told my Insurance these Belts are Fitted .. perhaps i should tell them on reflection ..might get a discount

[mab01uk]

If the seatbelt mountings are already in the bodyshell then yes i would.
If the Mini is early and has no mountings then it does spoil the factory orginality drilling holes in the car. It may even cause the DVLA to withdraw the registration based on recent events when a Mk1 Forum member converted an early 1960 Mini to Electric power and drilled a hole for a cable which was picked up by the DVLA inspector!

If I was intending to drive the early Mini to shows, etc then I would fit something like the Dealer 'Period' seat belts and mountings kit. I do not feel safe in any car unbelted and having lost an older brother, killed as an unbelted passenger in a Minivan crash in the 1970's, there is no way I would now take the risk. My brother was a mechanic and was being driven by a friend who had asked him to come and listen to a noise the van was making. He would have survived if he had not gone through the windscreen but few people wore seatbelts back then even when fitted. Ironically my brother raced an 850 Special saloon Mini at the time at weekends, wearing full harness seat belts....

I would also fit rear seatbelts if passengers were to be carried in the back and especially if children are passengers...no classic car originality is worth risking a life for. There is more than enough risk being in a classic Mini even when wearing belts driving on modern roads when surrounded by SUV's, and drivers using mobile phones and touch screens, etc.

[Tim]

I would. A retrofitted lap/sash seatbelt saved me from major injuries, possibly death, when I was hit head-on in my old Moke. My right femur was broken in seven pieces, most of my torso was bruised black from the seatbelt, but I had no head, spinal or facial injuries.

My Traveller will be retro-fitted with lap/sash belts in the front, but probably just lap belts in the rear -no one properly solved the challenge of rear belts in Travellers.

If you are just worried about tickets (not death), you could wear one of these.



Tim

[1071 S]

Having rolled my Mini (64 850), quite comprehensively, almost 60 years ago and walked away without a scratch (after I managed to get out of the belt without landing on my head) I would definitely vote for a retrofit if you ever intend to drive it...

A Mate has a 50s Swallow that, under the regs, does not have to be fitted with seat belts. However, he has retrofitted belts and I feel VERY exposed if I don't use them.

Cheers, Ian

[Exminiman]

Belts fitted to all my classics even though they are build date not required .. another interesting thought is i have not told my Insurance these Belts are Fitted .. perhaps i should tell them on reflection ..might get a discount

…………or might be seen as a modification ?

[Peter Laidler]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think that the UK seat belt legislation regarding PRE seat-belt cars is that '....if fitted then the statute requires that they must be worn.....'

Not that I am defending the sloppy response they make that '.....it's up to you to appeal the fixed penalty.....' The answer to that conundrum is to plead not guilty, have the case dismissed and ask for FULL costs.

[MagicWandWoody]

On my '64 I'm weighing up the options... Add belts? Or add the bumper-sticker "Organ Donor On Board"?

[Exminiman]

On my '64 I'm weighing up the options... Add belts? Or add the bumper-sticker "Organ Donor On Board"?

"Or add the bumper-sticker "Organ Donor On Board"

, TBH, as much as I hate being told what to do by Government, I dont think I could drive without wearing a seat belt on anymore, would feel exposed..

[Peter Laidler]

The thing about NOT wearing a seat belt is that it is the true definition of a victimless 'crime' or offence. There is no victim, ever. The only victim can be the seat belt-less driver! Sop why fine him/her for being a dickhead?

[Exminiman]

I agree completely, but these days Government has to be seen to be looking after us to a stupid degree and unfortunately, there is a whole raft of people who are no longer responsible for the themselves and would see it as a failing that the Government did not stop them killing them selves....

.....It also saves money for the NHS and other services....

[Jonny8]

I added front and rear belts to by 62 Cooper last year. I can post pictures of the install if interested - I had a Mini specialist in Los Angeles do it.

At the end of the day - the crumple zones of my Mini are not going to survive a Ford F150 strike. But it makes me and my massagers at least feel a little more secure!

-Alvin

[Tim]

At the end of the day - the crumple zones of my Mini are not going to survive a Ford F150 strike. But it makes me and my massagers at least feel a little more secure!

Like my Moke, still outrageously unsafe, but might make enough difference to save your life.

Tim

[winabbey]

The thing about NOT wearing a seat belt is that it is the true definition of a victimless 'crime' or offence. There is no victim, ever. The only victim can be the seat belt-less driver! Sop why fine him/her for being a dickhead?

Imagine the seat belt-less driver swerves to avoid a black cat in the middle of the road, slides across the seat to the passenger side as they are not being restrained in the driver's seat, loses control and mounts the footpath wiping out a parent and baby in pram. I suggest the latter are clearly the victims in this case.

Or the driver and passengers of a car that you collide with who have to live the rest of their lives in the knowledge that an accident they were involved in, that was not their fault, resulted in the death of the seat belt-less driver who exited the car through the windscreen.

In this day and age it is just plain selfish to drive on the open road and not wear a seat belt (in my humble opinion).

[Peter Laidler]

Once again, I can see where you're coming from Winn, but not wearing a seat belt by the stupid seat belt-less driver didn't cause the sequence of events you describe. It was the mysterious black cat that caused the accident. Much the same if a falling tree caused you to swerve and run into someone....., while you were not wearing a seat belt!

There is always a PRIMARY cause of an accident

[cobolman]

Thanks to all for the many responses on this topic.

As a former policeman (many, many years ago) I was taught to drive by a Road Traffic Police instructor who drilled into us the imprtance of seat belts. "You wear them every time. Without fail. No excuses. Ever. None". I've always worn a seat belt ever since.

As many have written here, the thought of driving a car without a seat belt makes me so uncomfortable that I just wouldn't do it. If the requirement was for the car to be kept original, without seat belts, then I simply wouldn't drive it. I would sell it and move on to my next project.

So, buoyed by the response here regarding seat belts, the question is how do you retrofit them? I'll start a new thread for this.

[cobolman]

I can post pictures of the install if interested - I had a Mini specialist in Los Angeles do it.

I'd really appreciate that, Alvin, and have started a new thread for this very purpose.

Thanks.

[winabbey]

Once again, I can see where you're coming from Winn, but not wearing a seat belt by the stupid seat belt-less driver didn't cause the sequence of events you describe. It was the mysterious black cat that caused the accident. Much the same if a falling tree caused you to swerve and run into someone....., while you were not wearing a seat belt!

There is always a PRIMARY cause of an accident

I was responding and disagreeing with your comment about victim-less crime. You now seem to have moved onto something else, the primary cause of an accident.

[1071 S]

"........At the end of the day - the crumple zones of my Mini are not going to survive a Ford F150 strike..."

You might be surprised at the toughness of the Mini body shell ...

Many years ago, during an early London Sydney marathon, a spectator Cooper S drove up the rally route the wrong way. In the subsequent head-on, the navigator of the rally prepared Citroen was killed. The Mini driver suffered a cut hand because his wooden steering wheel disintegrated...(his passenger was uninjured).

Down behind the shed I have a Minivan that was t-boned in the passenger door by a Commodore (think Pontiac G6/8) at normal road speeds. The Mini driver (who luckilly was alone) climbed out covered in blood from superficial cuts caused by the exploding passenger side door glass. I don't think there's a panel on the wreck that's not bent but you can still open and close the passenger door.

All the Miniots were wearing seat belts...

Cheers, Ian

[winabbey]

You might be surprised at the toughness of the Mini body shell ...

I agree.

As the frontal BMC crash test photos below show, the steering column pivots up via the bracket securing it to the parcel shelf and doesn't spear into the chest of the driver. The power unit slides under the floor and not into the passenger compartment.

Mini Crash Test.jpg

Clubman GT Crash Test 1.jpg

Clubman GT Crash Test 2.jpg

BMC Australia also did testing of the seat belt mounting points in the Mini range to ensure the mounting point didn't separate from its fixing on the B pillar.

Mini Seat Belt Mounting Test 1.jpg

Mini Seat Belt Mounting Test 2.jpg

An early test on the Austin/Morris 1100 body showed spot welds along the B pillar giving way before the mounting point fractured.

Morris 1100 Seat Belt Mounting Test 1.jpg