How Do You Retrofit Seat Belts to a 1960 Mini?

[cobolman]

As the title says, I'm looking for advice on how to retrofit seat belts into a 1960 Mini that was never fitted with them from the factory.

I'm at the stage of my rebuild where now is the time to fit them and so need a steer on where to put the anchor points, any good recommendations for seat belts, etc. etc.

I hasten to add that I've become almost capable with a MIG welder now and do not shy from welding in reinforcement plates, captive nuts, whatever else may be required.

Thanks in advance

[sugarhiccup]

FDTS has been used by many forum members, they provide excellent and high quality work having seen examples over the years in different project builds on this very forum.

They can put together something period looking to suit your needs, or re-web a set of seatbelts supplied down to the correct webbing, stitching, clasps, and fasteners, etc.

http://fdts-seatbelts.co.uk/Services.htm

I personally believe that your best value for money and ‘looks’ might be found in purchasing a decent set of Britax seatbelts second-hand, and having them re-webbed as above.

There may be other suitable options that will hopefully be recommended, but I hope this helps!

[mab01uk]

Someone will hopefully confirm exact dates and positions/thread sizes/photos for factory mountings, etc.

Mk1 Minis (sometime in 1961) had factory mounting points for 3 point static seat belts. B Pillar captive threaded holes in the first early high position (see photos below). The inner sill mounting holes have reinforced captive nuts while the centre tunnel near the handbrake has just a clearance hole (or two) - on each side of the tunnel which took nuts/screws/bolt plus a small reinforcing plate (not welded) below the floor/tunnel to connect the belt buckle end mountings. These normally came with the belt kit. Some time around June 1963 the factory upper 'B' pillar captive threaded mount was relocated lower down on the 'B' pillar.

Very early Minis from 1959 which had no factory fitted seat belt mountings were sometimes fitted with belts by BMC Dealers using a kit (the original BMC kit instructions were on the old Mk1 Performance website, if anyone still has the PDF file ?), a hole was drilled straight through the B pillar with a large chrome dome headed bolt on the outside (in the higher position). I assume these bolts came as part of the BMC belt installation pack? I think the lower mount on the sill side was just drilled through the floor near the sill with a small spreader plate below.

The factory B Pillar captive threaded holes in the first early high position (see photos below) with dimensions/photos are in an old Mk1 forum thread....but I've not found a link to the original thread yet....Edit: Link now added.
Pre-63 top belt mount:-
viewtopic.php?p=250959






LH 24A 1431 B-Pillar 1964-1969

These links below might also be useful for reference.

Fitting retractable seat belts to an early car:-
viewtopic.php?t=27318





Rear SeatBelts fitting in an early Mk1 Q:-
viewtopic.php?t=29460

[Tim]

These are B-pillar barrel bolts that meet Australian standards, they probably suit the UK too. They are designed for vehicles not originally fitted with a seatbelt mounting on the B-pillar and accept a standard 7/16" UNF seatbelt bolt on the inside. You drill a hole through the pillar and these are inserted from the outside, cut to length so that they act like a crush tube when the bolt is tightened.



For the floor mounts the rules here are quite specific about the size and shape of the reinforcing plates that need to be used. Essentially they have to be above a certain square area (2" x 4" seems to be common) and have rounded edges so they don't guillotine through the floor in a crash.

Tim

[mab01uk]

B pillar belt fixing height date change:-
viewtopic.php?p=332726

Any photos of pre-63 top belt mount?
viewtopic.php?p=250959

1972 Mk3 export rear seat belt mounts?
viewtopic.php?p=276585


Mk1 Inner sill threaded mount


Mk1 Centre tunnel mounting hole (some are 2 smaller holes) plus loose spreader plate below

[cobolman]

Thanks for the responses so for everybody. Extremely helpful.

In looking at the options, I'm considering using modern retracting seat belts. This is because of the convenience and also because, as seat belts weren't fitted to the car originally, anything I add will not be 'standard' so I may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb. Also, if I do it right, the seat belts will be very easy to remove, replacing the 'B' pillar fixing with a grommet (like a wax injection site) should I, or anyone else, want to exhibit the car at a show.

So here are my current thoughts for the front seats (jury is still out on the rear)

1. Cutting out a section of the interior 'B' pillar, weld in a strengthening plate, to which will be welded the appropriate seat belt securing nut. Weld the cut out section back

2. Repeat the process above but this time at either the sill strengtheners plate (because the early Mk 1 didn't have an inner sill) OR the companion bin (though I note Peter Laidler's comments about fragility here)

3. And finally, weld in the seat belt stalks to the transmission tunnel, using strengthener plates and welded in nuts again so that they are secure and also easily removable

I'd welcome two things here:

A. Any opinions on the above plan of work (I haven't started at time of writing so this is the perfect time to ask)
B. Any measurements for exact locations of:
i. The 'B' pillar nut (I'm looking for the more recent, lower position to suit retractable belts)
ii. The location of the tunnel mounted nuts

nb: I already have the location for the inner sill nut following earlier very helpful posts

Thanks in advance to all wonderful forumites. I've counted my blessings for the existence of this forum many times over!

[mab01uk]

Some more useful links for reference below.

Seatbelt question
(including dropping a reinforced plate down from the top of the B pillar) :-
viewtopic.php?p=250614

SEAT BELT ANCHOR PLATE ON INNER SILL - 24A2186
Seat belt anchor point plate on inner sill fitted from Oct 1963 models:-
https://www.minispares.com/24a2186-seat ... inner-sill

1960 Morris resurrection - Fitting Seatbelt anchors:-
viewtopic.php?p=186926#p186926

Seat belt mounting point measurements:-
viewtopic.php?p=179842

How to Mount my seatbelts to the passenger bins:-
viewtopic.php?p=84146

When fitting modern retracting seat belts some fit them as factory installed on later Mk4 Minis, with the inertia reels hidden away inside the rear pockets (see photos below). The belt then passes vertically up through the ashtray hole (later Mk4 Minis as in the photo had the ashtray bracket deleted from the rear pockets and a single ashtray added to the centre rear floor tunnel).







Has anyone fitted rear belts to their Mk1? :-
viewtopic.php?p=77564

Rear seat belts in early Minis - let's see your photos! :-
viewtopic.php?p=34188

Rear Belts:-
viewtopic.php?p=8052

[1071bob]

Bit more info here, you do realize you have to pay us or all this! this is the original late type spec. which doesn't seem that robust.

[Peter Laidler]

I agree with Bob here, regarding the apparent robustness of these early seat belt fittings and fixtures points......., phew..... Just look at the spot welds retaining the anchor point (right hand pic). All I can say is that standards in the early days must have been VERY relaxed.

My last-of-the-line Rover RCSport has rear seat belts fitted too and I have to admit that I look at them with a great degree of skepticism. At its last MoT the tester told me not to yank on them too hard in case I pulled them out of the chassis - just joking, but he made the point!

[hanlminiman]

Peter, I agree with your comments but in the early 1960s there were very few Motorways and speeds in day to day cars were not that high; generally. I think Paddy did not use a seat belt on the 1964 Monte event but the car at Gaydon has a mounting point for the shoulder belt on the panel below the rear window. Our family 1964 built car was fitted with seat belt mounting points but seat belts were not standard and my Dad did not see the point. I insisted that seat belts were added soon after delivery, 1st for the passenger and some time later after a lot of persuasion, for him.
How many competition Minis have we seen with full harness belt mounting points on the rear parcel shelf (with strengthening plates under, designed to stop mounting bolt pulling through the thin metal panel? Just like the 3 point Aley roll cage rear mounting point)
I have a 1997 Mini and tend to agree with you about the rear shoulder belt mounting points but the lap mounting points are reasonably strong to restrict movement on the seat. The rear "ratchet" block for the shoulder belt is position sensitive which helps restrain the upper body.
I think we have all seen the horrendous crashes in modern rally cars which I are constructed around a roll cage "space frame." Check out the way Mini Miglia race cars are constructed nowadays in Wales for example.

[mab01uk]

I think we have all seen the horrendous crashes in modern rally cars which I are constructed around a roll cage "space frame." Check out the way Mini Miglia race cars are constructed nowadays in Wales for example.

Interesting to also note that the full welded roll cage "space frames" in race Minis did add significantly to safety so racing Mini drivers involved in crashes had a survivable very rigid 'safety cell'...but in a high speed impact, whiplash neck injuries, combined with the extra weight of a crash helmet, could be severe or fatal due to the lack of any energy absorbing crushable zones in such a small car designed in the 1950's. As a result the Mini Se7en Racing Club did an in depth investigation into what could be done to further improve safety in the early 2000's and eventually recommended that all Mini 7 and Miglia drivers wore the HANS device as used by F1 drivers before it became mandatory in many forms of motorsport.

[BAD942B]

I agree with Bob here, regarding the apparent robustness of these early seat belt fittings and fixtures points......., phew..... Just look at the spot welds retaining the anchor point (right hand pic). All I can say is that standards in the early days must have been VERY relaxed.

My last-of-the-line Rover RCSport has rear seat belts fitted too and I have to admit that I look at them with a great degree of skepticism. At its last MoT the tester told me not to yank on them too hard in case I pulled them out of the chassis - just joking, but he made the point!

When I 1st worked at Four Ashes in Dorrige in April 1974 as a 16 yr old, they did wrecking for the police day or night, I wasn't allowed to go with them until I was much older but never did attend any serious accidents.
There were plenty of cars in the field out the back of the garage where manufacturer fitted seat belts to 60s & early 70s cars had either had the belts fail or more often than not the anchorages had failed resulting in massive injuries or even death, a quick look at the seats told you the story as the blood was still in / on the seat.
I don't think manufacturers fully understood about kinetic energy ie a 12stone person is still traveling at 30mph even though the car isnt, a force of several tons pulling on the belt & anchorages, I don't remember the exact figures.
I have always put the biggest spreader plates in cars that I can get in not whats allowed or sold by Demon Tweeks / TRS / etc, I have always used new belts or refurbished belts with new modern / freshly made webbing, always made up or refurbished by Sue Taylor at FDTS who we know well, and make sure that the rear upper mounting is at the optimum angle so that the belt doesn't strangle the occupant or break their back, this also has a lot to do with the height of the seat back which is quite low on a 60s Mini, head rests not fitted till much later with higher backed seats.
There is enough info from FDTS or Total Restraint / etc to make sure that you don't get this wrong.
Amazing to see installs carried out by other companies who should know better but don't appear to.
I still take my chance that my reactions are fast enough to avoid accidents so does my wife, we both raced very successfully for many years, however both she & I insist that whoever is passenger puts their belt on.
I don't believe the Police are properly trained to drive fast as their bosses don't yet consider that 5 days with an Ards instructor on a circuit would improve their high speed driving skills no end, they still train their drivers the same as they did 50 or 60 years ago.
I only met one Police instructor who was capable of true high speed driving, to see him control his 1958 Aston DB MkIII Saloon through Woodcote fully sideways on the throttle without losing any speed was amazing, a true sight to behold.

[BAD942B]

I agree with Bob here, regarding the apparent robustness of these early seat belt fittings and fixtures points......., phew..... Just look at the spot welds retaining the anchor point (right hand pic). All I can say is that standards in the early days must have been VERY relaxed.

My last-of-the-line Rover RCSport has rear seat belts fitted too and I have to admit that I look at them with a great degree of skepticism. At its last MoT the tester told me not to yank on them too hard in case I pulled them out of the chassis - just joking, but he made the point!

and make sure that the rear upper mounting is at the optimum angle so that the belt doesn't strangle the occupant or break their back, and the side mounts are well behind the occupants hips not level with them as this would cause internal injuries, the height of the upper mount has a lot to do with the height of the seat back which is quite low on a 60s Mini, head rests not fitted till much later with higher backed seats.

edited that paragraph

[Jonny8]

I had this work done by a mini specialist in California. Now the caveat is that these are really not going to help much in a confrontation with a Ford F150…. But it at least feel a little more “normal”.

Pictures of the front and rear install.

-Alvin

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