Piano hinge changeover point

[iain1967s]

I've been doing a bit of detective work with Dermott 360GTS, and reached the point that I'd like some wider input.

Here is the situation:

I have an April 1967 Cooper S 1275 German market spec, body 634xx
My car has the clip type rear quarter window hinges

Dermott has a June 1967 Cooper S 1275 German market spec, body 644xx
His car has the piano type rear quarter window hinges

Parnell shows Aug 67, body 65526, as the changeover point from piano to clips.
So I assumed that my car is wrong, and has later windows fitted.

But here's the kicker: I just checked the window etching date code, and it looks correct for Q1 1967

How can my car have correct glass, and incorrect window frames at the same time?
I didn't think the glass was (easily) removable from the chrome frames since they are riveted.

Anyone else heard of just the frames being changed out? Were they prone to rust etc and replaceable?

Just wondering if anyone else has a late 66 or early 67 car with the twin clip style hinges...

[Pete]

I wouldn't take glass dates as being too acurate an indication of build date but I've never seen a car as early as April '67 with stainless window frames. There's no reason the piano hinge type couldnt be swapped for the later but you should have holes still detectable for the piano hinges if so.

[iain1967s]

Thanks Pete. I'm going to pull the rear quarter side windows out tomorrow and see what's underneath the rubbers...

However although my car has its original cellulose paint on the interior, the exterior has been resprayed with high build primer and painted in 2k by a previous owner sometime in the 90s (when it was converted back from a Minnesota lake ice racer into a road car I think).

So I'm not confident there would be any evidence to be found, the piano hinges screw into the outside part of the B post don't they? But I'll take a look anyway.

Then I guess I'll be posting a wanted ad for a pair of piano hinge chrome frames

BTW, I'm not just using the window glass to date the car. It still has the original chassis plate, engine, and matching early 67 dates on other components such as boot latch, wiper motor etc. so I don't think there is any doubt to its authenticity.

[pdaykin]

I have a Jan 67 produced with piano hinges

[Andrew1967]

As a slight OT post, Dad's early Mk2 had a bodyside that had the factory drilled piano hinge holes on one side and the later type on the other. It did have the two clip type windows on both sides.

That side must have been lurking at the back of the side panel rack for weeks.

[Nevsmini]

My mk1 Cooper built on the 10th July 1967 has clips.
Body number 65341

[IAIN]

I have a 1967 with clip type hinges. Build date not known but registered 5th of July.

[Peter Laidler]

Somehow, I don't think that Indestructo or Tyneglass or whoever it was actually made the surround or fitted it to the surround. They simply made the glass part. So that will take the glass and the dating enigma part out of the equation. As with most things BMC - and industry generally in my experience, there will have been a long changeover period where the old gradually gets wasted out and the new comes on stream. Don't forget that everything that came INTO the BMC fold was charged for and paid for so I can only assume that they were reluctant to stop using stock at/on a particular day just for the purposes of the parts list. Nope, it makes sense to use up one while feeding in the other over a period of months or so. Just my take on things.

We had a system whereby a note would come around to the effect that part A would be declared obsolescent and used until stocks were exhausted. Whereupon part B, with a deeper thread would be introduced. You know the sort of thing

[360gts]

I have three 67 S's....Feb 67...piano hinge........June 6th build...piano hinge.... the other car is July 5th build...twin clips.
All three cars are before the Parnell body number. I have no reason to believe the third car had the stainless steel surrounds changed.

As we have seen from other changes...it appears that there were very few definitive change points.
As Peter stated...parts were used till supply was exhausted...during that time....there could have been batches of new parts arriving as the old ones were being used up.....hence the confusion about when an actual change was made.

John Parnell went with what is in the AKD books...a good source of information...on paper...but not always accurate to the day that a car was built.
Have to take these changes points with a grain of salt.

[Peter Laidler]

Yep, I recon that 360's put it better than me and more clearly. To be really honest, just reading a year or so back threads on this forum alone, I think that someone could write another book just about discrepancies in the parts book.

[dodge44]

Would of thought the final frame assembly was done at Longbridge and Cowley as it would involve excessive packaging to avoid damage if done offsite. Worth bearing in mind that Indestructo glass ceased production only a relatively short time after Triplex acquired the company in June 1967. Perhaps the takeover of the company led to a morphing of supply and fitment and a lag in dating. That said, with the Triplex factory being located at Kings Norton (Less than 3 miles from Longbridge) and the Indestructo factory being in the Park Royal area of London I have in the back of my mind that Indestructo glass was always more related to Cowley Mini production anyway than Longbridge where the Coopers were assembled?

[iain1967s]

I'm going to pull the rear quarter side windows out tomorrow and see what's underneath the rubbers...

Well apart from the rubbers being in dire need of replacement, I found nothing unusual under there. A little bit of corrosion which had been brushed out and painted over, but no evidence of piano hinge holes.

I did notice that the chrome surround is screwed not riveted where it joins at the top. Is that usual?

[dodge44]

Just a thought... and please don't take this the wrong way ....is it possible that one of the two cars here in question has been reshelled in the dim and distant past with a body from the Cowley production line where the body number would most likely be out of a perceived sequence, or are the original tags still on the car and match the heritage certificates?

Wouldn't dump those rubbers until you are happy for the the fit of any repros - most appear to be grossly oversize.

[iain1967s]

Just a thought... and please don't take this the wrong way ....is it possible that one of the two cars here in question has been reshelled in the dim and distant past with a body from the Cowley production line where the body number would most likely be out of a perceived sequence, or are the original tags still on the car and match the heritage certificates?

Wouldn't dump those rubbers until you are happy for the the fit of any repros - most appear to be grossly oversize.

A historical re-shell on my car crossed my mind, its definitely been messed with over the years so anything is possible - previous owner thought the car was ice raced in Minnesota before being rebuilt prior to him buying it in late 90s.

But there are other things which suggest against a re-shell into a non-S body, for example original factory paint on the right hand fuel tank mounting plate on the rear seat bulkhead, what looks to be a factory remote gearchange cutout etc. the chassis number plate looks aged and is consistent to the heritage cert and the USA title document. The FE number on the radiator cowl is also of the correct range for early 67 shell.

Regarding INDESRUCTO versus TRIPLEX glass, I wondered if that might be simply due to this being an export market car - I know there were different front windscreens specs for example, requiring laminated rather than toughened in some markets. Also, Parnell lists both types as being correct for pre-68 Cooper so I'm not sure that is an issue either way.

I won't be dumping the rubbers as I try to keep the car as original as possible - enough of it has already gone over time thanks to previous owners . So I will just soak them in wintergreen+alcohol to soften them up, then trim off the bad edge with a knife.

ps. No offense taken, life is a learning experience... I enjoy the mystery of uncovering my car's past almost as much as owning it.

[iain1967s]

Dermott 360GTS has kindly confirmed that his very original 67 German export S also has Indestructo glass for the rear windscreen. So it appears that glass was simply being dual sourced from both vendors regardless of factory location.

I also found a previous discussion thread which suggested the recorded August change point for the hinges is for the Cowley line, and that Longbridge had already gone over to the Mk2 style earlier. That would explain why we are finding clip hinges on earlier numbered bodies than stated by Parnell.

The responses from Nevsmini, IAIN and 360GTS would seem to narrow down the Longbridge change point as being mid to late June 1967. Thanks!

I'm still not convinced my car, at early April 67, should have the clip hinges as its a full two months earlier than that. But I have an idea to see if I can fit a USB endoscope into the bolt hole for the upper seatbelt mounting point. If I can get a clear view of the inside of the B pillar I can look for factory screw holes or evidence of weld/fill/blaze... so this story isn't quite over yet

--

Update 6 April
The USB endoscope would not fit through the seatbelt bolt hole, thread made it too narrow. But new details from minimk1man for an unrestored car confirm the clip type hinges were fitted as early as April 67, at least for Morris Cooper S spec with Indestructo rear quarter windows.

[iain1967s]

Following up from the other thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21880

Mine and Trevor's (mk1miniman) Mk1 S are both April 1967 Morris, within 100 of each other on the chassis plates and body numbers.

My car is heavily modified but Trevor's is a totally original, never restored, one previous owner from new.

On both cars, the rear quarter windows and rear screen are Indestructo, door glass is Triplex, all correctly dated.

Both cars have 2 clip type hinges on the rear quarters, not piano hinges.

[iain1967s]

Another 1275 S on BAT currently, also April 67 with the Mk2 clip type window hinges.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967- ... ooper-s-30