Front Hydro Subframe

[Gary Schulz]

Trying to get back into my long-waiting 1965 Cooper S restoration and I have found that my front wet subframe appears to be distorted. Looks like it would be a serious challenge to straighten it so does anyone know of a source for new (repro) front subframes? It's hard to show what I am seeing in a picture but the vertical section that runs parallel to the firewall has a larger gap on one side vs the other by maybe 1/2" or so.

Any ideas on sources?

Thanks

[LarryLebel]

Is it possible the body is distorted instead?

[Peter Laidler]

Without a picture or a decent sketch or drawing it's difficult to image but take heart Gary....... a slightly distorted front sub frame is quite easy to jack back into the shape that conforms to the engineering drop points as shown in the workshop manual. I have seen a couple of them 'straightened' when clamped onto a pull-dozer body jig and hydraulically aligned. Not quite as simple on the rear though

HOT to be worth a try.....

[MagicWandWoody]

The front subframe is surprisingly twist-able. One of my part-built cars came to me with one of the front subframe bolts 5/8" higher than the other. At first I assumed the front of the shell was twisted, but with a few straight-edges and some careful sighting I could see the subframe was twisted, not the shell. Turned out there was a repair/bodge bulge on the bulkhead pushing the subframe out of shape and the previous 'restorer' had just pulled up the tower bolts and the floor bolts as best they could - creating the twist - and then matched-drilled a new hole in the front panel. Once the bulge was removed the frame came back to the correct shape and both front bolt-holes lined up with the holes in the body.

Moral of the story: a "nearly completed project" is actually just... "a project".

[Ronnie]

I appreciate this is a rear frame but if this can be saved I am certain there is hope for your front frame. https://www.pakwheels.com/forums/t/proj ... /109834/56

[Gary Schulz]

Well the body "was" distorted because of a heavy shunt to the drivers side (LHD) when the car was raced in Europe in the 60's. I built a heavy steel fixture based on the drop points in the manual and managed to get the body to match the front and rear subframe attachment points after much work. Back in the 1965 time-frame it looks like the entire side of the car was replaced (when those panels apparently were readily available). Also, the drivers door was replaced as discussed in the thread below.

Ongoing saga discussed here: viewtopic.php?p=306635#p306635

I feel like I am still dealing with a few too many unknowns and would prefer to have a straight subframe... Is there a source for wet front subframes?

[Ronnie]

Well the body "was" distorted because of a heavy shunt to the drivers side (LHD) when the car was raced in Europe in the 60's. I built a heavy steel fixture based on the drop points in the manual and managed to get the body to match the front and rear subframe attachment points after much work. Back in the 1965 time-frame it looks like the entire side of the car was replaced (when those panels apparently were readily available). Also, the drivers door was replaced as discussed in the thread below.

Ongoing saga discussed here: viewtopic.php?p=306635#p306635

I feel like I am still dealing with a few too many unknowns and would prefer to have a straight subframe... Is there a source for wet front subframes?

Hi Gary appears to be NLA I am sure an advert would possibly bring a good used, even may be your side of the pond. Sorry

[Spider]

I do have a jig for checking front subframes, seldom does any new one line up, some need a nudge here and there, others can be utter basket cases and it would seem from the factory. I tried to check them for years without a jig, even getting them on the measuring table, while there I did have success it was painfully very very slow and lots of room to mess something up, so I'd check them at least twice. Then you make an adjustment and start all over again ! The jig easily cut the time down 100 fold.

[mab01uk]

Mk1 Mk 2 Wet Front Subframe (UK) :-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Mini ... d_source=1

Mk 1 Front subframe - (is this Hydrolastic, has the larger pipe holes in towers?)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326318259901 ... B291545416&

[Gary Schulz]

Looks to be hydrolastic to me. Look like good candidates however I am in Chicago so getting either of those here might be difficult.
That second one looks just about perfect. I wonder if there is a way to get a third party to ship it to the states? I guess I should exhaust my domestic options first...

Thanks for the pointers!

[iain1967s]

In 60173 near you….

https://www.ebay.com/itm/315792647846

Bit expensive but you can probably resell the bags to offset the cost.

[Gary Schulz]

I wound up acquiring that hydro subframe that was near me (thanks Iain!). I am just getting around to stripping it down and I have run into a problem. The upper control arm pivot pins are seized to the arms. The pins do not want to drift out even with a sizable hammer and I don't want to bend-up the subframe by really smacking it. I am sure others have faced this so what is the best approach to dealing with it? I would like to save the upper control arms if possible.

Other than this the subframe appears to be in good condition...

IMG_5326 2.jpg

[MagicWandWoody]

Maybe try an SDS drill on hammer-only setting? It's gentler than a lump-hammer but a lot more persistent.

[mab01uk]

Also worth a try to remove the grease nipple from the top arms and then try to get some penetrating oil/fluid squirted inside the arm to soak in and help unseize the pivot shaft. The shafts may also have developed grooves from running with dry needle roller bearings and lack of regular greasing as few modern mechanics own a grease gun....

TMF has also some good suggestions here:-
https://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/t ... pper-arms/

[Peter Laidler]

Thinking on my feet and a play on Martins suggestion..... What about removing the front nut and retainer plate part, turn the sub frame up....., missing plate end upwards, and pouring some penetrant in so that gravity takes it down, past the knackered bearing and well into the shaft. Next day, knock shit out of the shaft!

[Gary Schulz]

Maybe try an SDS drill on hammer-only setting? It's gentler than a lump-hammer but a lot more persistent.

True, it is a whole lot of smaller tapping rather than smacking it hard. Might try that...

Also worth a try to remove the grease nipple from the top arms and then try to get some penetrating oil/fluid squirted inside the arm to soak in and help unseize the pivot shaft. The shafts may also have developed grooves from running with dry needle roller bearings and lack of regular greasing as few modern mechanics own a grease gun....

TMF has also some good suggestions here:-
https://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/t ... pper-arms/

Excellent idea. I imagine what's left of the grease has petrified into some solid form but worth a try. I was wondering if there is a way to use an actual grease gun to pump penetrating fluid in there under pressure. I seem to recall many many moons ago I used a grease gun to pressurize my hydrolastic suspension but don't remember exactly what I did!

Thinking on my feet and a play on Martins suggestion..... What about removing the front nut and retainer plate part, turn the sub frame up....., missing plate end upwards, and pouring some penetrant in so that gravity takes it down, past the knackered bearing and well into the shaft. Next day, knock shit out of the shaft!

I have the plate off of the front already but the only bad part about knocking the shit out of the shaft is the shaft is "welded" to the suspension arm which would distort the front of the subframe tower if you really beat on it hard. What I really need is a way to fixture this thing in a press and push the shaft through while supporting the front on a pipe with a diameter just slightly bigger than the pivot pin so the load doesn't distort the subframe. What a pain that would be to hold together though!

[trevorhp]

If you had or know someone with an anvil.
You might be able to hold the subframe over the hole in the anvil with the pin through the hole then having done all of the above suggestions TAP it gently through with the subframe being supported it might not distort

T

[MagicWandWoody]

If you had or know someone with an anvil.

Or just a length of large dia thick-wall tube over the other end of the shaft with an assistant holding a deadweight (lump, sledge, some scrap) against it while you batter away. The more massive inertia you can give to the subframe close to the big hole the better, because it will distort less, and impacts will be more effective.

[CooperTune]

Do you require the upper arms? I'd say a wiz wheel would be the quickest route. I have Hydro upper arms if needed. I can't say for sure that I still have the Inno hydro front sub I had blasted, powder coated wrapped in plastic. I did give six sub frames to my junk man after realizing how many I have coated and stored. They all had rust or damage and I'm downsizing. Steve (CTR)

[Gary Schulz]

I would like to save the upper control arms. Seems like a waste to destroy them unless absolutely necessary.

Still pondering my options here...