Auction fakes...

[cockney21]

https://auctions.wbandsons.com/auction/ ... 2&pn=7&g=1

MK4 me thinks...

[Exminiman]

https://auctions.wbandsons.com/auction/ ... 2&pn=7&g=1

MK4 me thinks...

To be fair, It does say "Re-shelled in the 1980s" in bold......... they would of used the shells available at the time - so probably not a rotten used MK1 shell, but a new or solid mk3/4 shell....wouldn`t they ?

[cockney21]

Then list it as a 1980's Mini.. which is what it is.

[Richspec]

That MIGHT be local to me, I'm just checking the reg with the guy that went to view it. If its the same one then yes, as stated reshelled before Mk1 shells were re made.
Again, if the same one, the owner wanted 20grand (its a 30 grand car mate.. ) and wouldn't accept its value was wrecked by being in the wrong shell, we all said 8k was about right.

[mini_surfari]

Then list it as a 1980's Mini.. which is what it is.

Same old, same old.. I have a 66 mini that was re-shelled in the late 70s (with receipt i will add)… I have owned it since 2003, and it had many of its mk1 parts still fitted.

Many people used new/ used shells to rebuild cars... even the works department.

There's nothing deceiving about the advert, you don't have to buy it , and the guide price reflects what it is.

It's the main reason I don't take my 66 to any Mini shows anymore, as plenty of the usual 'that's a ringer' comments... of course I've spent 10's of thousands on car I have zero intention on selling to save £100 a year on road tax .

[cockney21]

Buyer Beware. Leave it at that.

[Exminiman]

TBH, why dont the mods lock this thread, its obviously agenda driven - its title and content is potentially going to cause more legal grief....

[mab01uk]

A friend of mine had his Mk2 Cooper S T-boned by a Volvo in 1972 and as a result ordered a new Mk2 replacement shell from the local BL Dealer. When it arrived they had substituted a Mk3 shell complete with doors, as stock of Mk2 shells had run out and were being listed as NLA. At the time we decided this was actually a bonus to update it to the later winding windows, etc...no one cared about original details back then, it was all about having the latest 'improvements' wherever possible. I would certainly have swapped my Mk1 for a later Mk3 at the time given the chance....rather than using scrap yard parts from later Minis to update it!
The resulting Cooper S Mk2 in a Mk3 shell turned out to a really nice car and is part of its continuous history...but as said above if you took it to shows the usual ignorant 'that's a ringer' comments would be heard with no regard for its genuine history and what were different times.

[Costafortune]

https://auctions.wbandsons.com/auction/ ... 2&pn=7&g=1

MK4 me thinks...

It used to be a 970 S.

[Pandora]

TBH, why dont the mods lock this thread, its obviously agenda driven - its title and content is potentially going to cause more legal grief....

I've been contacted as a moderator, highlighting some concern over this thread, and possible ramifications of discussions around certain cars.

Having looked it over, it seems to me that the warning of 'let the buyer beware' is certainly important, but clear throughout.

And, as an ex auction house employee, I can say that they are bound by the info on the entry form by the vendor. It is a civil contract to sell the car on the vendor's behalf, and to make their client a figure they will accept. To a large extent, they are bound by the vendor's info. The auction house take a commission from both seller and buyer, but often not a huge amount, given the costs of running a sale.

HOWEVER, most auction houses are not specialists in the minutiae of details between every make and model, so can be decieved, or at least take it at face value when an S isn't factory perfect, or reshelled into a 'lesser' mk1 shell. But they also care about their own reputation, and so try to be open with their descriptions where things are obviously not as they should be. Fall outs and bad PR are expensive.....

It's not just Minis remember - land-rovers, jags, hooky bugattis......

I think the discussion is a bit of a waste of time, personally. If you like a car, buy it. If you don't, don't. I try not to worry too much about the ills of the World I can't control. Does it bother me? A wee bit. But not that much as I (as the vast majority of here will also feel) feel confident I can satisfy myself what I think on any cats I might want to buy, but here is a key point - such discussions may help those new to Minis, those less familiar with recognising a Mk1 from a mk4. There may well be forum members who maybe don't post a lot, but who get real value from such discussions.

Of course, if Mark ever feels discussions are drifting into chopy waters, I am sure he will take appropriate steps, but until then, carry on, and remember, Caveat Emptor.

Al

[steve1071]

https://auctions.wbandsons.com/auction/ ... 2&pn=7&g=1

MK4 me thinks...

Seem to recall that was in their last auction at a reserve in the low teens

[Richspec]

https://auctions.wbandsons.com/auction/ ... 2&pn=7&g=1

MK4 me thinks...

It used to be a 970 S.

As in, thats what it started life as??

And yep as i said earlier it is the same car my mate went to look at but they were too far apart on pricing, I've sent him the link.

[miniminor]

That would be OK at a £8-9k guide price.

[TobyAdam]

It's concerning that a classic car auction house would advertise and sell a car with potentially incorrect information. It raises questions about their credibility and due diligence. Let's hope they rectify the situation and ensure the vehicle's authenticity before proceeding with the auction.

['S'-type]

A topic that still provokes a range of responses.
My take is that as a package if is pretty well done, not too much bling and no frills. I would be happy to drive that and use it regularly.
However, whatever the provenance, which may or may not be suppored by the paper trail, at the end of the day its a bitsa with quite a lot of 'wrong' details/parts. I accept that it is not being presented as a factory original car, though a lot is made of the fact it has the 'original number (Chassis plate) in the video. To be fair there aren't too many parts from 1965 on that car even if we assume the engine and running gear are genuine S spec which they may or may not be. Removable tappet chest cover suggests it may be even if it may not be the original unit or capacity. See above. Obviously no hydrolastic.
It has a later heater, mixture of mk 1 and 2 binnacle parts, wrong boot handle, later washer bottle, wiper motor, alternator and coil bracket.
I appreciate that none of these changes would have been unusual in the 80s and do not in themselves indicate that this was not a legitimate shell swap. But fast forward to today when factory originality is valued, this car, although in continuous ownership, is not really any different to a thousand other mk3 and on cars/shells that have been retro styled, badged and performance converted with a 1275 engine but with lots if later parts.
None of this really matters if the owner likes it, doesn't care what other people think of it, and even calls it a 1965 Morris Cooper S. The big question is, when offering the car for sale, is it disingenuous to emphasise the idea that this is a genuine 1965 Cooper S in the blurb, even though they are totally up front about the shell swap.
This is not an attempt at fraud, it is just a case of caveat emptor, that will probably be reflected in the hammer price.

Dad, I've just bought a 1965 Morris Cooper S, will you come and have a look at it for me?

[Pandora]

Of course we've had this discussion many times, simply because there is no one answer. There are many, and there are none.

Do the DVLA care? No. They are a government body set up to oversee the allocation and management of vehicle registrations, to gather tax revenue and various other administrative processes relating to motoring. I don't know the percentages, but let's say 50% private cars, 40% company, fleet vehicles and HGVs etc, and 10% everything else, of which a fairly small % are historic vehicles. It is a tick on the dog's back. They are neither staffed, inclined, nor qualified to get involved. The issues we are talking about are possibly misrepresentation or fraud (if sold on false pretences), and depending on the detail either a police matter or civil. Not their concern. At a push, and given enough evidence, they MIGHT recall a plate, but we all know that there are no shortage of hooky ID's in drawers and old toolboxes, so the old mini / landrover / Ford / MG...... is reborn and the cycle continues.

If someone is genuinely hoodwinked into buying something that is not what it purports to be, the police MIGHT be interested, but more often than not will say 'Innocennt until proven guilty, and we think it's a civil dispute, not our area, off you pop to a solicitor". At best you might get a crime number.

So, what of the dealers and auction houses? Well, as I have said before, I used to, long ago, work for a well known London classic car auction house, and so have seen both sides of the coin. It seems it is a commonly held belief that auction houses are entirely staffed by an army of red trousered, loafer clad specialists who are simultaneously experts in every production variant of every vehicle ever made, whilst also cretinous inbred buffoons who wouldn't know a Sinclair C5 from a double decker bus, such is their inability to get a description right in a catalogue. So, which is it? Well, truth be told, a bit of both. Most know a fair bit about one area or another - Pre War, post war, bikes, single seaters of a certain area, but no one - Not one of them, is a specialist in everything. They should all have a broad knowledge of the market, be able to know a fair smattering about the big names and models we see a lot of, and which of their colleagues to refer to for the stuff they don't. Me? I know a fair bit about Minis, Lotus, '50s and '60s sports and racing cars, can tell a lotus 20 from a 22 across a paddock (and when it's a 20/22). Do I know the minute details of Jag XK models? A bit, but not like folk here know Minis. Can I tell a Type 35 from a type 51 Bugatti? Yes, with about 80% accuracy. Can I identify a Rolls Royce Phantom from a 20/25? Yes. Can I tell you the coachbuilder of a particular 20/25 from a photograph? No, probably not. So, was I a bad auction house employee? No. Was I fairly typical? Yes (But with less self confidence than my privately educated co-workers perhaps.....)

So, when a client wants to enter a mini in a sale, all of us could ask the basics, and I would hope that most could look at a Mk3 or 4 and say 'That's not a Mk1 shell. Would they all spot the Mk2? maybe not all. Should they? well, as Mini enthusiasts, you'd maybe say yes, and maybe be right, but for Hillmans too? and Ferraris? Dussenbergs? Austin Healey's? Allards? Bugatti? Corvettes? Modern supercars that sound like it might be a pasta dish? How many on here know that much about all other cars? Honestly? and remember, the lower value the car, the less commission, hence, less time and attention it'll get - this is a commercial world, and time is money.

So, the seller. They bring a car, they tell you about it on the phone, by email, whatever. You may get decent photos by email and not even have to go and see it before it arrives. They tell you all about it, and on that basis, you write the description to give it, and the vendor (and by extension, your employer) the best chance of a good sale, and making a few Quid. What are they now, 5% seller commission? Not a lot of hours, especially if you have to go and see it, photograph it etc. So, assuming it all looks legit, in it goes, and the catalogue goes out and on line. Then the phone starts to ring -people asking about it, but also people telling you the description is wrong, the car is wrong, that you are all eejits and know hee-haw about anything, That they have informed the world by way of the internet, and their specialist forum are up in arms - battle cries have been issued, and hackles raised. So, you go to the boss and tell his the tale of woe. "are they looking to buy it?" "nope" "are they selling it?" "nope" "are they leading authorities on the make, model or anything like that?" "maybe some of them" "are they officials from the owners club" "maybe some of them, maybe not" "OK, but they are not buyers, and not sellers? So what exactly is it to do with them?"

Now, that might sound harsh, but look at it from the business point of view - the auction house has a contract with the vendor. What is to say that joe bloggs on-line is right? goodness knows here are differences of opinion on here over detail. Auction houses exist to make money. To sell cars, and have HUGE overheads invested to do that. They are not curators of museums. there should certainly not be positive efforts to mislead, of course, but if every car at a sale had a saleroom notice on the screen that said "some people on the internet think this car has the wrong aged shell / wrong brake servo pipe / incorrect seat flute detail" etc. It would be ridiculous.

But going back to the seller - they, I think, hold the bulk of the responsibility, and maybe that is why some chose the apparent anonymity of the auction route - a degree of separation. Again, that is on them, and in an informed market, the buyer has the ability to acquaint themselves of opinion and knowledge, through forums, clubs, social media and the good old fashioned library / bookshop. So they hold a responsibility too.

IF there is deception on the part of anyone over any part of the identity of a vehicle, who had greatest role? Likely the seller, but even then, not always. Maybe they swapped a chassic plate from a Mk1 Cooper onto a Rover era shell. Maybe to add value, maybe to avoid the DVLA private plate costs, maybe to 'complete' a retro conversion. but yes, they should be honest about it, and if using an agent (either a dealer or auction house) they should tell them, if they don't have the model specific knowledge to take it as read.

I think often, because they facilitate the sale, Auction houses are tarred with all the sins of the old car game. Yes, sometimes we researched, inspected, pored over and really got to the bottom of a car. Examined the authoritive text books written years ago, took info from the internet, new recollections, went back to those involved and re assessed history where several cars may have become mixed and muddled when the numbers involved didn't justify the time or effort. But that isn't the case for the vast majority of cars in the catalogue.

And, lots not forget, we all take this far too seriously, because it matters to us in our own wee world. Many people who buy a '65 Mini Cooper S, WANT to believe that is what they have. It might have been reshelled, it might have the wrong engine or wiper motor, it might have been a Cooper when it was new, and for a lot of people (and yes, often those new to it and with the money to spend) they simply don't worry about that, because it's not on their radar. I'm not saying it's right to exploit the naivety of some people in the market - far from it, and often auction houses are the very people who advise relatively impartially, whilst dealers want to shift their own stock at the time. But is it for anyone else to protect them? Does that not shield them from taking decisions themselves?

So, it's a shared responsibility, it is good that discussions in general terms take place in the open, but the Worlds problems are not the same for everyone, not are they the job of the Mk1-forum to solve.

Of course, there is the issue of history and provenance, and that is a whole other layer, but it's too late at night to discuss that or I'll have Pete on the phone with steam comin' out his ears

So, that is my (long) take on it. I worked for an auction house which later became rather well known for less than brilliant financial management and some of that was perhaps due to criticism of the quality of descriptions. Who that was down to, I cannot say, but I also know people who still work in the industry and work very hard to keep clients, vendors and buyers, happy. Sometimes history has not been linear for a car and making that clear is not solely their job. Sometimes they should recognise it, other times it is less simple to spot.

Maybe the posts on this thread have helped, or will help some potential buyers, either looking at specific cars, or just to know what to look for when buying at auction - something a lot of people are put off of by scare stories and doubts. A LOT of good cars sell at auction after all

Al

[cockney21]

While I fully understand the real world reason why people do, or have historically, swapped car identities from a rusty wreck to a clean usable later car my biggest concern is that people still think it is OK to do it now without following the legislation. If my car was stolen for the body shell and transformed in to yet another "Cooper S" I think I would be just a little upset...as would owners of other classics where the price of a base model is many times lower than the top spec versions.

I think the manner in which the auction houses have turned a blind eye should be highlighted, if for no other reason than to stop potential criminal activity.
I remember watching one video where the auction house quoted " We all know what will happen to this car (pile of rust with a V5 sitting on top), there's a rusty car sitting in someone's garage"...more nudge nudge wink wink than an episode of On the Buses...
I hope that this type of discussion has in some small way cleaned up the way auction houses describe the lots they sell, and if YouTube presale videos are anything to go by them I think it has. I more than happy to be refered to as a "rivet counter" if it cleans up the trade as there is a lot of money to be made from selling stolen cars in the global market so let's make it less attractive.

[Exminiman]

While I fully understand the real world reason why people do, or have historically, swapped car identities from a rusty wreck to a clean usable later car my biggest concern is that people still think it is OK to do it now without following the legislation. If my car was stolen for the body shell and transformed in to yet another "Cooper S" I think I would be just a little upset...as would owners of other classics where the price of a base model is many times lower than the top spec versions.

I think the manner in which the auction houses have turned a blind eye should be highlighted, if for no other reason than to stop potential criminal activity.
I remember watching one video where the auction house quoted " We all know what will happen to this car (pile of rust with a V5 sitting on top), there's a rusty car sitting in someone's garage"...more nudge nudge wink wink than an episode of On the Buses...
I hope that this type of discussion has in some small way cleaned up the way auction houses describe the lots they sell, and if YouTube presale videos are anything to go by them I think it has. I more than happy to be refered to as a "rivet counter" if it cleans up the trade as there is a lot of money to be made from selling stolen cars in the global market so let's make it less attractive.

But……there was nothing wrong with the last car you commented on, the advert said it was re-shelled etc and the price pretty much reflects that.

You are now confusing “ is it as it left the factory” with “Auction fakes”……

I dont see how the Auction house or seller are trying to mislead you in this case ?

In this case, maybe we should be applauding the auction house and sellers honesty - just a thought.

Anyway, think I will leave my comments there......I am in danger of giving a toss..

[cockney21]

Listed as a MK1 Morris Cooper S...which I don't think it is regardless of what the small print says.

Wish I could get reshelled...

[Pete]

All sounds like a whole lot of fuss about nothing to me. Who cares it’s been reshelled? Most have! Who cares it’s the wrong shell or wrong spec? Only the owner and the buyer need to worry about it. I just don’t know what there is to see here?

So long as the owner’s not nicked it or cloned someone else’s car that doesn’t belong to him I just couldn’t care less. If a buyer can’t tell the difference between a Mk1 shell and a Mk4 that’s really their look out. Plenty of actual car scams out there to worry about I think involving theft of other peoples property and car cloning.