Auction fakes...

[mk1]

In all fairness, it does claim to have been "reshelled" in the description, but like most other posters I reckon it is far more likely to be a MUCH later car with a 1964 plate screwed to it.

[cockney21]

Re-shelled...so they missed the mark when sourcing a brand new shell or Q plate after the conversion and test.

I'm can't for the life of me see why people are willing to break the law with an old car but would run a mile if it was a 2 year old car!

Imagine turning up with a MK2 Escort Popular on MK1 Escort Mexico plates and V5, I would think Bangers and Cash gang would laugh at you...but Minis "No problem"...just let me see the cash!

[minimk1man]

I watched a reapeat of a Car SOS programme the other night. Fuzz and his mate picked up a Fiat 500 to restore. It turned out to be a totally rotten shell with a few bits and 3 spare engines one one which they decided would be the best to rebuild. They then ended up scrapping the shell then going to Italy to buy another secondhand shell which seemed to be in better nick and restoring that instead and hey presto they have resurected the guys Fiat complete with his original registration.
Doesn't anyone at DVLA watch any of these TV programmes.

[mab01uk]

Re-shelled...so they missed the mark when sourcing a brand new shell or Q plate after the conversion and test.

I'm can't for the life of me see why people are willing to break the law with an old car but would run a mile if it was a 2 year old car!

Imagine turning up with a MK2 Escort Popular on MK1 Escort Mexico plates and V5, I would think Bangers and Cash gang would laugh at you...but Minis "No problem"...just let me see the cash!

The difference with a Mk1 to Mk2 Escort is a major change of body shape obvious to all but as said in previous posts to a non-Mini enthusiast a classic Mini never changed (apart from the Clubman front) and the finer 'anorak' details are of little interest to most people, even if you bothered to point them out.
Also most 'Fast Fords' models also have significant numbers of say Mk1 Escort Mexico plates and V5 on basic model Mk1 Escort donors with varying degrees of accuracy in spec and descriptions of history....not to mention Land Rovers!

[mk1]

Doesn't anyone at DVLA watch any of these TV programmes.

They do occasionally. There was a ringer that Drew Pritchard "Salvage Hunters: Classic Cars" was responsible for that had it's book pulled, or so I read.

THT 553G

https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/V ... ?locale=en

M

[cockney21]

I'm sad to say I don't think DVLA are bothered, neither are the police (unless a hate crime is involved) and the auction house take are considered an agent for the seller and therefore will say they will only publish what they are told. Behind all the flashy presentation they are out to make money regardless of any morals.

I don't think things will change, people will get conned and end up paying over the odds for cars which really should not be on the road legally in their current state. I suspect the Ford scene are going through the same thing.

[Peter Laidler]

The late Steve Smith told me that someone in some sort of police investigation/DVLC connection had told him confidentially, that his stolen Antelope Mk2 S had been exported as a different chassis and V5 number.

As it was locked up and stored, poor old Steve wasn't even sure exactly when it was stolen. So the assholes had a head start. Maybe he should have reported it as a hate or woke crime........

[Pete]

I watched a reapeat of a Car SOS programme the other night. Fuzz and his mate picked up a Fiat 500 to restore. It turned out to be a totally rotten shell with a few bits and 3 spare engines one one which they decided would be the best to rebuild. They then ended up scrapping the shell then going to Italy to buy another secondhand shell which seemed to be in better nick and restoring that instead and hey presto they have resurected the guys Fiat complete with his original registration.
Doesn't anyone at DVLA watch any of these TV programmes.

If they’d have restored the original rot box they’d probably be acused by many (as has happened with the Bangers & Cash Cooper S) of replacing 90% of the body shell anyway, so they can’t really win. I don’t really think it’s a big deal, it’s no myth that the vast majority of surviving Mk1 Cooper Ss are no longer living in their original shells, and those that are are 50% new metal. If the history is continuous , not been invented from nothing and nothing’s been nicked (including the logbook!) then to me it’s still an honest car, albeit not very ‘original’. You pays your money and takes your choice.

The car in the original post though is a different kettle of fish to my eyes, it’s clearly a completely different and complete late Mini with a 1963 registration stuck on it as Mark pointed out and I can’t see any buyer not noticing that!?

Let’s not get started on ‘auction fakes’ we’d need too much bandwidth!! As we all know plenty of em have been sold for six figures!!

[Pete]

I'm sad to say I don't think DVLA are bothered, neither are the police (unless a hate crime is involved) and the auction house take are considered an agent for the seller and therefore will say they will only publish what they are told. Behind all the flashy presentation they are out to make money regardless of any morals.

I don't think things will change, people will get conned and end up paying over the odds for cars which really should not be on the road legally in their current state. I suspect the Ford scene are going through the same thing.

At the end of the day DVLA are in no position to act on anything like this unless they are presented with an official complaint from someone and any case brought will need to be proved to them in order for them to act. We have to remember they’re a huge and busy set up with very little knowledge about cars, let alone classics! Ditto auction houses, they can only publish descriptions of cars supplied to them, they’re not private investigators. However the flip to that is that they do have a habit of totally ignoring advice when very wrong cars and misleading descriptions are flagged up to them ( mainly because the advice is never from an official club which makes it easier to ignore) and of course the commission is their priority.
Theres a few pretty well known examples of auction houses being alerted to blatant misdescription of very expensive infamous Minis and them totally ignoring the advice but then last year a clone car was pulled from an auction when its original owner alerted the auction house to the cloning issue so they do listen sometimes. To be fair they can’t just pull auctions based on spurious information from unofficial sources. This is why the clubs are crucial but currently totally indifferent.

[minimk1man]

You may not think it is a big deal Pete but the fact is it is illegal and whilst it may not seem a big deal to you, to make a TV programme about doing it seems to me unproffessional and wrong. Just encourages people to ring cars without any comeback. Only my opinion.

[Pete]

I get it Trev, I do, and though Ive never really been into reshelled cars (though have definitely done it!!) it’s safe to say there’d be very few Cooper Ss about if they hadn’t been! The works team would have been shut down! . The alternative with cars like that Fiat would possibly have been to scrap the project entirely which isn’t necessarily a better option. If it’s all above board I don’t see it as a problem.
Since I began to look at them more closely I’ve started to find quite a few early 1275GTs have also recieved a new base unit! More than I thought, but probably shouldn’t be THAT surprised.

[InnoCooperExport]

I have no issue with re-shelling if it's a period correct shell. But to pass the car from the original post off as 63 is just woeful. It does raise the whole philosphical debate of the Ship of Theseus but then my Inno wouldn't be an Inno anymore either since it has a new floor, wings, doorskins, bootlid frame (the outer skin was transplanted)... But it has its limits, and that car is taking the P.

[mk1]

"Ship of Theseus" I had to google it.

Far more impressive than "Grandad's Axe".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

That's today's thing learnt.

Thanks, M

[cockney21]

I have a problem with re-shelling into a pre registered car to keep the same registration details, it's called ringing. If the original car was good why not transfer the older car parts on to it and stay legal? Or is it the history is just a V5 piece of paper? If the shell of the car is so bad that it can't be restored then that's the end of the car in my eyes...it doesn't live on because I took the engine out and plonked it in another car.

Unpopular idea as it involves the potential loss of £££ more than the appreciation of the cars.

[mab01uk]

"Ship of Theseus" I had to google it.

Far more impressive than "Grandad's Axe".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

That's today's thing learnt.

Thanks, M

And of course not forgetting Trigger's Broom...

"Trigger's awarded a medal for saving the council money by using the same broom for over 20 years....."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAh8HryVaeY

Quote: "The fact that this episode gets a mention on Wikipedia's page on 'Ship of Theseus' gives you an idea of the influence of this programme. Pure brilliance."

[mab01uk]

Back in 2013 Classics Monthly magazine started a 'Reshell Or Die' petition for classic cars which had some interesting ideas on this topic.........as always there were many different opinions and 'for better or worse' after much discussion nothing changed in the end.

As Pete says above, if everyone had obeyed the letter of the DVLA reshell rules back in the day, (I seem to remember they were introduced around 1980 so all earlier reshells were legal), the Cooper S as a classic would be far rarer and probably even more expensive today, as many more would have been scrapped instead of rebuilt into then fairly plentiful and cheap 850cc donor Mk1/2/3 cars/shells (not stolen) by enthusiasts throughout the 1960's/70's/80's and early 90's, when it was not considered sensible or viable to rebuild a rusty or severely damaged original shell. The downside was however the rarity now of any rust free garaged 'little old lady' one owner Mk1 Mini 850 Automatic Minis!

[minimk1man]

Whether you agree or disagree with re-shelling with secondhand shells from other vehicles is a long standing debate. My point was that with it being illegal, a mainstream TV programme should not be blatently showing the practice surely.

[111Robin]

I don't see an issue re-shelling a car with the correct spec' for the car, as could have been done in period after a smash. However doing it to increase the value by saying it's a Mk1 is very dubious. It was probably done in all innocence, just using a shell they had, and the owner was no doubt happy with it. Selling it on is a different story though and if DVLA were to get involvedthey would probably delete it from the system. That said it hasn't been given a high value. Had they been looking for £15k upwards it would have appeared a lot more dubious.

[mab01uk]

I don't see an issue re-shelling a car with the correct spec' for the car, as could have been done in period after a smash. However doing it to increase the value by saying it's a Mk1 is very dubious. It was probably done in all innocence, just using a shell they had, and the owner was no doubt happy with it. Selling it on is a different story though and if DVLA were to get involved they would probably delete it from the system. That said it hasn't been given a high value. Had they been looking for £15k upwards it would have appeared a lot more dubious.

"DVLA issues ‘Q’ registration numbers to vehicles whose age or identity is in doubt.
If this happens, any original vehicle registration number will become invalid and you must not display it again."
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... on-numbers

[hanlminiman]

I don't see an issue re-shelling a car with the correct spec' for the car, as could have been done in period after a smash. However doing it to increase the value by saying it's a Mk1 is very dubious. It was probably done in all innocence, just using a shell they had, and the owner was no doubt happy with it. Selling it on is a different story though and if DVLA were to get involvedthey would probably delete it from the system. That said it hasn't been given a high value. Had they been looking for £15k upwards it would have appeared a lot more dubious.

At the turn of the century it was cheaper to strip an accident damaged Rover Mini than it was to repair. I know of an Essex dealer who had many later bodyshells in stock; sadly not until much later as they were sold off very, very cheaply when the Rover dealership closed down.