Has the electric car bubble burst?

[Peter Laidler]

When I see fully loaded Eddie Stobart electric/battery lorry thundering up the M6 or along the M4 I'll come to my senses and accept that Electricity - or something else - has won the day.

[Herbert]

But are there batteries In a vibrator? How long do they last? Can you recharge it? What's the point of having a battery driven car when you can own a vibrator?

[gs.davies]

I drove the Electric Mini SE last year before the wife's Cooper S PCP deal expired. It went like a rocket, a incredible wave of silent accelerative torque that didn't stop propelling the car forward until it maxed out. It really was something else. We were pretty convinced that it was the way to go, that was until we sat down and crunched numbers..

For a monthly outlay probably almost £100 over the current 5 door Cooper S we could have the 3 door Cooper SE, losing the rear doors isn't ideal for the use my wife puts it to, but the range would be more than adequate to cover her daily routine. But all added up, with the increased leasing costs, we'd about break even compared to sticking a few gallons in the ICE Cooper S. And that didn't move us. The prices are just laughable. The dealer's insistence that we'd 'save money on petrol' was easily countered with the fact that the change would go straight to a finance company.. We simply renewed the S for another few years. Apart from insisting it wants a set of rear pads, there's nothing wrong with it and it's great fun to drive it hard. I can see us keeping it for quite some time, the way things are going economically.

Is electric the way forward? Yes, probably, but until prices can compete with ICE vehicles I can't see it. When it does happen, it'll snowball though.

I don't think any of the big OEMs are really looking at anything else either; synthetic fuels, hydrogen etc, all probably better solutions, but if there's no market big enough then I can't see it getting a foothold.

Enjoy ICE while you can.

[gs.davies]

But are there batteries In a vibrator? How long do they last? Can you recharge it? What's the point of having a battery driven car when you can own a vibrator?

Without the sound of tens of thousands of small explosions happening every minute exiting their gases out of a long steel pipe , you've got to get your kicks somehow...

[mab01uk]

Last time I drove from Surrey to the South of France, Mediterranean coast I only had to refuel my BWW 320D once on the approx. 850 mile journey...with a range of 550-600 miles fairly easily achieved by my diesel BMW on the French Autoroutes. Stopping only once to refuel was a major advantage, as anyone who has driven that route, especially in the summer holiday season, will know the queues for petrol/diesel fuel at the service areas can be very long at peak times and add to the overall journey time. Imagine what the queues would be like if you had to wait for all those cars to be re-charged even on fast chargers and had to do that every 200 miles or so....

[rolesyboy]

Ok but in reality how often do you go to the South of France?? I can’t say I would consider doing that journey on one fuel stop as a major triumph. It’s a small convenience in the scheme of things. For most drivers 90% of your annual mileage won’t be driving to the South of France . It would be made up of lots of short journeys with occasional longer journeys.
on those occasions my Tesla does 300-350 miles on a full charge. Call it 300 miles. So I have to stop at a fast charger twice, for which the car gives me a live status update on location and availability of a charging point should I need it. A 300 mile journey is going to take 4-5 hours at best. Bugger trying to do that in one hit. I will take a leg stretch, grab a coffee and some lunch and enjoy the journey cos I I’m on holiday.
It’s a circular debate and this one turns in to a big time sink but I do think there is far more merit to EVs than people realise.

[111Robin]

I'll wait to see how they perform after ten years/100k miles. If they are a throw away device after half that due to battery degradation then I remain unconvinced. I will never be in the market for a new car of any type, I run an "old banger" as my daily as do thousands of others out of economic necessity. I have no idea how long the batteries will last, I haven't done any research,, but it's far too early to say based on consumer evidence. I'll watch with interest as I continue to flog my old diesel banger to death.

[MiNiKiN]

I'll wait to see how they perform after ten years/100k miles. If they are a throw away device after half that due to battery degradation then I remain unconvinced. I will never be in the market for a new car of any type, I run an "old banger" as my daily as do thousands of others out of economic necessity. I have no idea how long the batteries will last, I haven't done any research,, but it's far too early to say based on consumer evidence. I'll watch with interest as I continue to flog my old diesel banger to death.

Wait no longer.
An article from German Bild tabloid - the equivalent to "the Sun" or so. This write up has also appeared elsewhere, but I thought I post the trnaslated article from EV-hater "Bild":
<<Long-distance record in the Model S electric car
Unbelievable: This Tesla drove one million kilometres

By: Holger Karkheck
28.11.2019 - 20:28 Uhr

That's what you call range: Hansjörg Freiherr von Gemmingen-Hornberg (56) today completed the one million kilometre mark in his Tesla Model S.

His red electric sedan has driven the equivalent of 25 times around the world in just five years. A world record!

"I drive about 600 kilometres a day," says the trained farmer. "I used to sit on the tractor all day, it was no different then." In the meantime, Freiherr von Gemmingen-Hornberg lives near Karlsruhe as a private citizen who made his fortune partly with foreign exchange trading.

Now he has time. His longest journey: to the North Cape, a total of 14,000 kilometres in 14 days. The frequent e-driver bought the Model S as a demonstration vehicle. One year old, 30 000 kilometres on the digital speedometer. "I paid just under 90 000 euros." That was in 2014.

He gets his free electricity from Tesla

Since then, Freiherr von Gemmingen-Hornberg has had only low operating costs. "I get electricity for free from Tesla. It also costs nothing in the hotels where I stay."

Tesla also gives an eight-year warranty. "With no kilometre limit," the driver emphasises. "Maybe they'll give me another new motor." In the meantime, he has already had his fourth motor, all of them replaced under warranty.
The current battery, the second in the car, has covered 470,000 kilometres and has lost only 20 per cent of its original capacity. The range is currently still around 300 kilometres. And consumption? 16.6 kilowatt hours, says the owner. But you can't say that exactly - there is only data for the last 330,000 kilometres ...

Brakes are hardly ever used

"All in all, I have paid 13 000 euros for repairs." Wear and tear is also within limits. Once, he had not been serviced for 300,000 kilometres. Otherwise: new tyres every 50,000 kilometres, new brakes every 400,000 kilometres. "In 99 per cent of the cases, I drive with recuperation and don't have to brake at all."

His next goal is now one million miles (i.e. 1.65 million kilometres). "An intermediate goal," says the baron. "I drive the Tesla as gently as possible, rarely over 120 km/h. After all, I want it to last a long time."

Why is he doing all this? He wants to create more understanding for alternative drives. "The electric car is a piece in the mosaic; much more needs to happen.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)>>

[111Robin]

"Tesla also gives an eight-year warranty. "With no kilometre limit," the driver emphasises. "Maybe they'll give me another new motor." In the meantime, he has already had his fourth motor, all of them replaced under warranty.

That's hardly encouraging. I doubt all manufacturers will cover motor replacement so willingly once such failures become more commonplace. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a publicity stunt by Tesla, maybe they forgot to tell him not to say anything about the four replacement motors ?.

Also, not servicing a car for 300,000k isn't exactly a good thing, especially with the reduced use of the brakes. Seized calipers, corroded discs, alloy wheels stuck on the hubs etc., all the things you see nowadays with cars that aren't properly serviced. Basically encouraging people not to look after their car, brilliant advice. You won't know until you need to do an emergency stop, then it's too late. But it's ok, you're saving the planet

[Glacier white]

Indeed, for some people like the case of the aformentioned gentleman from Germany, his Tesla sounds ideal.
Having a few hundrend thousand to spare, and plenty of time to kill, it's not a problem to clock up the miles, at your leisure, i must add.

For anyone else that still must be somewhat more productive, a range of 300 Km and speeds up to 120 Km/h sound rather inadequate, to put it politely.
Just to be clear, i am not against this technology in general, but truth to be told, it's not for everyone. I am sure it is ideal for short commuting, school runs, shopping, etc, if you can charge it at home overnight, but if you start adding other uses, you'll find it becomes an expensive compromise.

It's a totally different thing having to cover 500+ Km in a day with a half an hour stop to stretch your legs and maybe have a coffee, from covering the same distance and trying to find a place to stop where you can actually charge your car in a reasonable time. I mean, whoever is using his car for longish bussiness trips, having to press on and all that, would laugh at the restrictions EVs are having at the moment.

[Peter Laidler]

Another well thought out breath of fresh air from 111Robin. Just sufficient words to carry the day as well............

[rolesyboy]

I concede. You were right. The whole EV thing is a joke. Poor infrastructure and reliability proving appalling after just 4000 miles. The Tesla would not hold charge this morning and the RAC are useless so I had to dismantle it myself. Turns out there’s not much to it after all and completely debunked all this crap about lithium and moving parts. Pics to follow.

[rolesyboy]

Pics as promised. Feckin EV’s eh

[Exminiman]

Pics as promised. Feckin EV’s eh

At least they put a Duracell in, could of been even worse

[mab01uk]

Britain explores a crackdown on brake and tyre wear emissions.....
"Drivers risk being forced to pay a “tyre tax” as Britain explores a crackdown on brake and tyre wear emissions.
Ministers have hired advisers to explore how to address harmful emissions that experts say are more harmful than diesel fumes.
The Department for Transport has asked consultancy Arup to “develop recommendations on how to better assess and control these emissions which will persist after a transition to zero tailpipe emission vehicles”, according to a Government filing.
Although the Whitehall officials this weekend insisted that Arup’s work was not designed to inform tax policy, it is being seen as one of the strongest signals yet that a tyre tax is coming down the road.
Andy Turbefield, head of quality at Halfords, said: “Putting a tax on road safety is not the right way to plug the fuel duty gap. Worn tyres and faulty brakes are two of the biggest causes of accidents.
“As it is, many motorists are delaying tyre replacement and basic maintenance because of the cost-of-living crisis. Using the tax system to penalise people for keeping their vehicles in a roadworthy condition is not a good policy.”
Tyre and brake wear pollution is expected to be the next battleground for clean air campaigners after drivers switch to electric vehicles.
Particles sent into the air – known as “particulate matter (PM) 2.5” – are more harmful than nox emissions that have been the target of low-emissions zones such as Sadiq Khan’s Ulez in London.
Although tyre technology has developed to reduce dangerous emissions, the Environment Department said last week that non-exhaust road emissions have “remained largely unchanged between 1996 and 2021”
Mr Turbefield added: “If taxing non-exhaust emission is to be considered, then there needs to be more research into emissions from road surface wear. It’s plausible that electric vehicles, which are much heavier than petrol vehicles, cause more damage to road surfaces and are therefore a bigger source of road surface emissions. Any review needs to take account of the big picture.”
A Government spokesman said: “We want to better understand the impacts of non-exhaust emissions, such as tyres, on the environment which is why we’re conducting research on the matter. This research was not commissioned to inform tax policy development.
“As we continue to deliver on our target to meet Net Zero by 2050, we are committed to keeping the switch to electric vehicles affordable to consumers, which is why we are spending billions to help incentivise uptake and fund the rollout of charging infrastructure across the UK.”
In May Professor Alastair Lewis, chairman of the Department for Transport Science Advisory Council, said: “When everybody owns a low emissions vehicle, low emission zones become a toothless control lever to try to manage air pollution."
“A world where we [have] jam-packed roads full of electric cars [also] isn’t a particularly attractive one… Even if they are electric, [they] will generate lots of particles.”
“At some point in the future when most of those cars have disappeared, a different form of air pollution control” is likely to be needed, he added.
“We do have to project forward about how we’re going to manage vehicles in large cities like London in the future when we have a largely electrified fleet of vehicles.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... emissions/

[mk1coopers]

I wouldn't be to happy paying a 'tyre tax' when 2 weeks ago I had to replace 2 perfectly good tyres due to damage from a pot hole on a poorly maintained road, even after filling in all the (extensive) forms for the local authority all I got back was 'Section 58', we had done all that we should of this was the reason, from the start of this thread, that I had a Nissan leaf for a week.

[Costafortune]

Aren't Tesla being sued by a government over lying about range?

A mate has an electric Kia co.car. He isn't paying a grand or whatever to install a home charger for a car he doesn't own so you need to find a charge point. In Cheltenham this appears to be a bit of a problem. You get to one and assuming the charger works and the cable hasn't been chopped off (that always makes me chuckle), there is always a queue and apparently Teslas using non Tesla charging points (?)

He went for a Kia on the basis of Kia being a proper car company and whilst it drives well, charging it is just a pain in the arse.

Values of used electric cars are dropping significantly now as potential buyers are waking up to the reality.

[Costafortune]

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk ... s-23963330#

He sounds like a dick, he drove it until "the engine went bang", probably would wreck an EV just the same. £2k per year warranty, seriously ?.

No, JLR stuff really is absolute junk.

EV's will be the same other mass produced electrical goods - cheap junk, cheap junk with a nice badge/price tag and then decent stuff.

[rolesyboy]

Aren't Tesla being sued by a government over lying about range?

A mate has an electric Kia co.car. He isn't paying a grand or whatever to install a home charger for a car he doesn't own so you need to find a charge point. In Cheltenham this appears to be a bit of a problem. You get to one and assuming the charger works and the cable hasn't been chopped off (that always makes me chuckle), there is always a queue and apparently Teslas using non Tesla charging points (?)

He went for a Kia on the basis of Kia being a proper car company and whilst it drives well, charging it is just a pain in the arse.

Values of used electric cars are dropping significantly now as potential buyers are waking up to the reality.

Dunno. I am not aware of any substantive efforts to sue by the government?? Is this happening? Is it in the UK?
Maybe Tesla have under reported ? The warm weather seems to be increasing my range by the day....
I know VW (and lots of other ICE manufacturers) faced legal challenges on emissions a while back.

I haven't found a chopped off cable yet. I hope its not any forum members with a grudge against EV's
If he won't pay for a charging point that's a choice he's made. The EV chargepoint grant provides funding of up to 75% towards the cost of installing electric vehicle smart chargepoints at domestic properties across the UK. Presumably he's in it for a while so probably beneficial in the middle-long term.

Teslas using non Tesla charging points. That's shocking. Surely there must be some kind of by-law that a Tesla driver is obligated to only use Tesla charge points. As an absolute minimum if a Tesla owner is found using these sites the local authorities should impound their cars and the Kia owners, and whoever else has the God-given right to these charge points, should publicly chop the ends of their charging cables off. That would sort this National Crisis out.

Re Values of electric cars dropping off?? That is almost inevitable for any mainstream vehicle as more and more EV's come on to the market.
I don't believe its a case of buyers waking up to the reality. Its based on fleets buying masses of cars and reaching the end of leasing agreements.
There will be a glut of EVs which are 3-5 years old by now as they reach the end of term. In the same way your new 3 series or Honda does 3-5 years after the launch of a new model. Granted the fact that EV's bucked the typical trend and retained their value so well in the first few years is an impressive feat.

Personally I haven't found charging a PITA. Just push a plug in to a socket, be it 3 pin 13a, home charger or at a Charging station?? I still haven't found myself flustered or in any kind of blind panic in 4 months.
We roll....

[Peter Laidler]

Ah........ Good response from Roly (above) except that at the end of the last sentence, you missed out the last word. '......YET'

That's because while it's all bright and shining at the moment, as sure as god made little green apples, as most other EV drivers have found out and are deserting them in droves, there will be charging problems.........., usually when you ain't at home!