Putting the body back on the subframes…?

[gs.davies]

Speaking from my own experience. Putting the body back on to the assembled frames is not the way to go. It is MUCH easier if the frames are fitted with minimal parts on board. They are lighter & easier to manipulate.

I have tried to lower the body back onto a complete front subframe c/w engine ONCE. I would never attempt it again as long as I live.

That said, the more you do something the easier it gets & I know that some people do do it this way & I am sure that some of the tricks they suggest will be good ones.

However you do it.

Good luck.

What were the particular problems you encountered with lowering the body over the front subframe?

I'm tending to prefer this method, as I've already built it up and from experience in the past, I've never managed to get an engine into a car from the top without damaging something, and that was on later cars without the radiator shroud in place. Not to say I couldn't be persuaded otherwise of course.

[mk1]

It is just 1000 times more ungainly. Getting the frame lined up in the engine bay always (in my experience) involves some ragging about, with an engine in and wheels on this is infinitely more difficult. The lining up of the tower bolts is almost impossible when you are having to try & manipulate the shell to do it.

The last time Rich & I put an engine in, not on one of our cars I might add. the shell had been welded together a little out of line & although we did manage to get it in if we had been trying to do the shell onto the body we would still be trying now.

As I said in my original post, I am sure that there are people who swear that shell onto frames is the way to go, it's just in my experience it is about 10 times more difficult & is absolutely guaranteed to cause more scratches, dings & heart ache than fitting the frame to the shell & lowering the engine in from the top. Each to their own, but I will certainly NEVER try it again.

I reckon that the last 6 engines I have fitted have been done on my own using a decent engine lift / hoist & one of these;

s-l1600.jpg

I have not scratched ANY paint at all & have fitted the engine c/w rad & with a cowl on the shell.

More on this subject here;

http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?t=28231

[gs.davies]

It is just 1000 times more ungainly. Getting the frame lined up in the engine bay always (in my experience) involves some ragging about, with an engine in and wheels on this is infinitely more difficult. The lining up of the tower bolts is almost impossible when you are having to try & manipulate the shell to do it.

The last time Rich & I put an engine in, not on one of our cars I might add. the shell had been welded together a little out of line & although we did manage to get it in if we had been trying to do the shell onto the body we would still be trying now.

As I said in my original post, I am sure that there are people who swear that shell onto frames is the way to go, it's just in my experience it is about 10 times more difficult & is absolutely guaranteed to cause more scratches, dings & heart ache than fitting the frame to the shell & lowering the engine in from the top. Each to their own, but I will certainly NEVER try it again.

Thanks Mark, that's useful advice. I'm starting to lean towards hiring in a crane and a lift table to get the frames on and the engine in from the top.

I may need the engine tilt bracket - anybody close to me in Essex have one they'd lend out?

[rolesyboy]

Hi Gary. I've got that type of engine lift that you can borrow. Just give me some notice for when you plan to do it.
Cheers. Mark

[gs.davies]

Hi Gary. I've got that type of engine lift that you can borrow. Just give me some notice for when you plan to do it.
Cheers. Mark

Great, thanks Mark. Just waiting on prices from local hire shop on lift table and hoist. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Car is ready to receive frames now.

[InnoCooperExport]

This thread is great and very timely as I have been breaking my head over how to do this very thing! If I had a 2 post lift at my workshop with the shell on it; it would be a piece of p***. However, much to my disappointment I don't. I have one available to me but getting the shell and frames over there is more faff than it's worth.

My current situation is that I have the shell on 4 axle stands each with big solid planks of wood between them spreading the weight of the shell over the sills. The rear subframe went it bare and was then built up in situ, because as Polarsilver mentioned it would be ungainly and heavy as sin to lift up and mount on your own fully built up. This leaves me with the engine on the front sub sitting in the engine bay on a dolly.

My original plan was to pickup the shell on a pallet with a small forklift belonging to the owner of the complex where I rent my workshop. Sadly it proved to be just over the max lifting limit for the forklift (perhaps pallet stacker is a more accurate term) which means the shell started to tip a bit when I attempted to lift it off the axle stands. So now I'm stuck... The shell is up at about knee height, maybe I with a mate I can put some jacks under the planks, support the shell on those and drop it down a few pegs on the axle stands, then when I get the studs on the subframe closer to the crossmember in the engine bay make sure they're lined up and lift up the engine to mount the sub, allowing wheels to be mounted and then the whole shebang dropping onto the wheels with jacks?

[mk1]

It is not too difficult for 2 people to lift a shell c/w built up rear subframe off a set of jacks. Did this about a month ago.

[woodypup no 2]

If you have a forklift, tele-handler or bigger crane and plenty of height, lifting the shell vertically and dropping over the built engine and front s / f is easy enough.

But if you are some how lifting the front of the shell and lowering over the engine - the rotation of the shell means that several parts ( eg radiator & shroud, steering rack & s frame ) interfere with each other making it awkward.

Dropping the engine into a rolling shell in so much easier except getting the inner drive couplings together which can be fiddly unless the front wheels are off the ground.

[Andrew1967]

Next time I have to refit an engine into a Mk1 or 2 , I'm definitely going to try it with the rad already fitted.

[mk1]

Good call!

You will be AMAZED for easy it is. M

[mab01uk]

It is just 1000 times more ungainly. Getting the frame lined up in the engine bay always (in my experience) involves some ragging about, with an engine in and wheels on this is infinitely more difficult. The lining up of the tower bolts is almost impossible when you are having to try & manipulate the shell to do it.

The last time Rich & I put an engine in, not on one of our cars I might add. the shell had been welded together a little out of line & although we did manage to get it in if we had been trying to do the shell onto the body we would still be trying now.

As I said in my original post, I am sure that there are people who swear that shell onto frames is the way to go, it's just in my experience it is about 10 times more difficult & is absolutely guaranteed to cause more scratches, dings & heart ache than fitting the frame to the shell & lowering the engine in from the top. Each to their own, but I will certainly NEVER try it again.

I reckon that the last 6 engines I have fitted have been done on my own using a decent engine lift / hoist & one of these;

I have not scratched ANY paint at all & have fitted the engine c/w rad & with a cowl on the shell.

More on this subject here;

http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?t=28231

Totally agree always lower the engine in from the top using a decent engine lift / hoist ....I tried frame to shell many years ago with lots of helpers and swore never again....it might look easy on the old production line films but is not so easy to achieve in most garages!

[Polarsilver]

Today i lowered the bare painted Pickup shell down onto the Front Subframe with Engine & Rad fully built.. this was a Solo Labour effort using two chainblocks one at the front & one at the rear keeping the body shell horizontal throughout .. Engine was sitting on a caster wheel board ( like Mr Shifter uses ) with the body raised up the Subframe & Engine pushed in under .. no dramas & i did not need to use any other jacking method.
I do not have an engine crane so its a case of use what kit i have available .. the important bit is to be safe .

[gs.davies]

Today i lowered the bare painted Pickup shell down onto the Front Subframe with Engine & Rad fully built.. this was a Solo Labour effort using two chainblocks one at the front & one at the rear keeping the body shell horizontal throughout .. Engine was sitting on a caster wheel board ( like Mr Shifter uses ) with the body raised up the Subframe & Engine pushed in under .. no dramas & i did not need to use any other jacking method.
I do not have an engine crane so its a case of use what kit i have available .. the important bit is to be safe .

Ah, this makes sense as you've lowered the car in a horizontal plane over the engine - it's the arc that the engine bay moves through if the car sits on the rear wheels that's been concerning me. I also have the engine and subframe on a board on castors so it's moveable in all directions. Where did you attach the lifting straps to at the front and rear?

[Spider]

I have tried a few different lifting points on the engine but found the best / easiest is a couple of adaptors I made that screw in to Spark Plug holes 1 and 4 and lift from them. Tilts the engine at just the right angle. When it lands, it is a little forward of where it needs to be. I either slide it back pushing with my feet (doesn't take any effort) or use the trolley jack to roll it back

[gs.davies]

Well, as a post-script to this thread, I thought I'd share my findings. At the weekend, as my helper was unavailable, I rolled the car out of the into the sunshine with the intentions of rigging up a hoist to separate engine from subframe. And out of sheer bloody-mindedness I decided to see if it really was a sod of a job to lower the body down over the engine and subframe.

Verdict; no, it really wasn't difficult at all.

There's a description on my restoration thread for any that haven't read it, but in short what I did was to get the rear of the car down on the floor, on wheels with some chocks behind the wheels. I supported the front with axle stands around the slinging shoe and used a nice big old high light jack with a plank of wood cut to fit the floor between the two channels for fuel and brake pipes. This was positioned more or less in front of the floor crossmember. The engine, box and subframe were sat on a four wheeled dolly, no road wheels in place.

I jacked the car up until the engine and subframe would slide under the front valence, keeping the axle stands in place all the time. Then once it was in the hole, I gently lowered the body down over the frame, checking for anything that was fouling and adjusting the axle stands so there was always support no more than an inch or two away at a time. The inner wing did snag on the subframe, so a bit of judicious brute force got that to the right shape and inside 45 minutes, the car was sat down on it's wheels, engine, box, cooling system etc etc, all in place.

I was worried that locating the setscrews for the subframe mount might be tricky with all the weight on, but I'd got it pretty close using a long ratchet extension bar down the hole in the bulkhead crossmember where a cone compressor would be fitted and used that to guide the body home. I dropped the toe board set screws in first, then went to the front with a screwdriver and a jack to set the level of the subframe. Once a screwdriver would pass through the front panel and into the subframe mounts, the bolts into the towers went in without drama.

Subframe in, home and dry. I found doing this, solo, far easier than dropping the engine in through the top of the car, and I've only one bit of paint damaged through this way, and that was where the inner wing fouled the subframe on the drivers side leading edge .

Now to deal with the radiator fouling the shroud, but that's another story altogether!

Here's some pics

IMG_3320.jpeg

IMG_3307.jpeg

IMG_3306.jpeg

IMG_3304.jpeg

IMG_3303.jpeg

[CooperTune]

I'm 73 years old and at 16 I got a work permit to work at a engine and transmission exchange and began learning to beat flat rate. I worked alone then and still do. My shop is equipped with a 1 ton rolling gantry and a normal engine hoist. With the shell on jack stands I jack the rear sub into position and secure it. Then I place the shell with rear in position on the tallest jack stands I have. With the engine hoist I raise the front of the shell high enough to roll the front sub complete with power unit suspension and cooling, in from the side on the rolling mount. then lower the shell into place. As for dropping in from the top the A+ units are easy the remote units are a pain. I have yet to drop or damage one and this is something done toward the end of a job when everything is nice. Steve (CTR)

[mk1]

Glad it went OK, still a dumb way of doing it though

[gs.davies]

It's not as dumb as NOT sorting out swapping the lower rad mount and shroud for an S one until putting the whole thing back in the bay.. Guess what I'm doing this evening

[mk1]

It's not as dumb as NOT sorting out swapping the lower rad mount and shroud for an S one until putting the whole thing back in the bay.. Guess what I'm doing this evening

I know someone else who did the same only very recently

(it wasn't me, though)

[gs.davies]

You can't consider yourself a Mini owner until you've had a Mk1 rad out at least four times. This makes for number five for me I think. At least it's all clean and fresh, and indoors, without the pressure of having to get to work in it the next day, working at the side of the road, in the rain..