Hillclimb/Sprint safety Regulations

[trevorhp]

I know I am not too bright ! but after 2 hours of reading the MSUK Blue book I am still confused about the current safety equipment regulations regarding NATIONAL Hillclimb and Sprint events.
3 questions that I still cannot simply answer myself with any certainty.

Seat: Does it have to be 'in date' ?
Harness: Does it have to be 'in date' ?
Fire Extinguisher: Do you need one at all ? (I know it makes sense to have one, but is it a requirement?. I also know that if you fit one, it has to be 'in date')

Car intended to be used 1972 Mini 1380 modified which is new to me.
Goodwood sprint and Shelsley Classic Nostalgia

All you folks currently competing will surey know the answers, I hope.
Thanks T

[straightcut]

As far as i am aware seats dont need to be in date same with belts but an extinguisher if fitted has to be in date. Hope this helps.

[trevorhp]

Thank you so much
That's pretty much where I ended up myself but I was not confident at all.
Why does it appear to be so complex?
Section S appears to conflict with section K
T

[straightcut]

Yes it can be a bit confusing but for hill climbing and sprints it is not as strict as racing. Good luck anyway.

[mk1coopers]

Did the Spring Sprint at Goodwood on Easter Monday, ended up fitting a hand held 2.4ltr motorsport spec extinguisher (2 year service intervals) just to avoid any issues, seat and belts not in date, in class A I’ve not had any friends have to fit the extinguisher, just thought it was sensible to do it.

[hanlminiman]

Have word with Julian Harbour or a scrutineer at a venue near you in the South West who acts as an Official at the local hill climb venues. Check out the Downton events.
Cliff

[Julian Harber]

Hillclimb regs don't dispare - I actually find the blue book interesting, the trick is to not just read theb section `S' (speed regs) but also K (safety) and one often missed is the section `J' that can clarify or contradict what the other sections may indicate - Definations section can be helpful for things like silhouette, fuel etc

Answering your question :Seats do not need to be in Date, Belts do not have to be in date, Extinguishers are a recommendation not a requirement (in hillclimbing Fire marshalls are trackside close and at regular intervals).

Clothing:
For Road going Racewear overalls,and Helmet need to comply with regs. Gloves are recommended but it's not worth not having them.

In modified class - gloves are a requirement as is a Head Restrait Device (Hans) but seriously consider one even if not needed in your class they will save you even in low speed incidents, Fia approved race boots are very often a requirement of a particular venue and will be stated in their event Supplementary Regulations but make them part of your kit.

One thing if you are considering fire retardant under garments (again a recommendation) the manufacturer Walero are superb they are comfortable and do actually give you tempreture regulation to be cooler on hot days and warmer on cold ones - wearing a longsleeve Walero top is more comfortable than a tee shirt - Balacarva's work really well when putting on your helmet if like me you wear glasses and of course protect your face especially in an open face helmet
In the Blue Book is a list of scruniteers - Local to me is Martin Ford who is extremely knowledgible and helpful do not hesitate to contact a scrutineer they are the ones who will issue your pass to compete at an event you have paid to enter so you don't want to be excluded by a infingement of the regs and lose you entry fee and racing - Hope this helps and have Fun "It's not all about Winning"

[mk1]

A perfect condensation of the regs Julian.

I have already met a few people have become very confused this year. A few Scrutineers included

[trevorhp]

Hi
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice and clarification.
I had reached asimilar conclusion but was still unconvinced that I was correct.
Its a pity that Julian's excellent condensed and concise clarification of the current requirements is not available widely.
I have seen conflicting, contardictory and downright wrong informationon many websites and forums.

I totally agree with Julians endorsement of Walero they are one of our network partners.

I will carry a fire extinguisher just as insurance and the smallish hand held one is qiute light and convenient.

I have to say that the regulations that we work to in F1, WEC and ELMS are far more understandable and unambiguous, leaving you in no doubt as to what is and what isn't required.

Thanks once again.
T

[billycooper]

Sorry Trevor everyone beat me too it !

Yep as always Julian's on the ball !, hopefully see you again at Shelsley !

Steve

[Exminiman]

Yes really interesting and helpful, thanks. Sure the lack of clarity is putting potential competitors off, you need confidence that you are not going to be turned away.......

Re the noise regs, can I ask if anyone recommends any particular DB meter ?

[Oneball]

Yes really interesting and helpful, thanks. Sure the lack of clarity is putting potential competitors off, you need confidence that you are not going to be turned away.......

Re the noise regs, can I ask if anyone recommends any particular DB meter ?

I’ve got one from RS. I bought it as it’s to BS as I’m struggling to get my Corvette to meet noise regs and people said that the apps you get for phones aren’t accurate. Low and behold it reads exactly the same as the phone! Hillclimb noise regs are the most lenient so if you passed a rally or race test it’ll be fine.

[Pete]

Answering your question :Seats do not need to be in Date, Belts do not have to be in date, Extinguishers are a recommendation not a requirement (in hillclimbing Fire marshalls are trackside close and at regular intervals).

Clothing:
For Road going Racewear overalls,and Helmet need to comply with regs. Gloves are recommended but it's not worth not having them.

In modified class - gloves are a requirement as is a Head Restrait Device (Hans) but seriously consider one even if not needed in your class they will save you even in low speed incidents, Fia approved race boots are very often a requirement of a particular venue and will be stated in their event Supplementary Regulations but make them part of your kit.

No way, I thought gloves were mandatory in all cars and have been wearing the bastard things for years! I hate wearing em and just end up spitting on them in a vain attempt to make em sticky!

[mk1coopers]

I have got a HANS, been wearing gloves since I started and I've not had a problem with them (Sparco), just got a new race suit which is much more comfy (lightweight) than the last one (again Sparco) (putting it down to being better material, it's mostly down to it fitting better as it's bigger )


I don't think I'll get out many more times this year (if at all) as there is so much going on, hopefully by April next year what I'm doing now will be completed and I'll be able to do more again

[hanlminiman]

Hi
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice and clarification.
I had reached asimilar conclusion but was still unconvinced that I was correct.
Its a pity that Julian's excellent condensed and concise clarification of the current requirements is not available widely.
I have seen conflicting, contardictory and downright wrong informationon many websites and forums.

I totally agree with Julians endorsement of Walero they are one of our network partners.

I will carry a fire extinguisher just as insurance and the smallish hand held one is qiute light and convenient.

I have to say that the regulations that we work to in F1, WEC and ELMS are far more understandable and unambiguous, leaving you in no doubt as to what is and what isn't required.

Thanks once again.
T

After my visit to Prescott this weekend and witnessing 1st hand the horrendous fire incident (and I think methanol fuel - not sure but whatever it was the flames were not visible and hidden under secured bodywork) and thinking of the current fuel problems, comments re deterioration of fuel pipes is very relevant now. I do recommend at least a 2.5l handheld extinguisher is in our precious cars.
Multiple Powder, foam and water extinguishers were used to put out the Prescott fire with FANTASTIC teamwork from THE ORANGE ARMY and the MS Officials on duty. Without those volunteers we would not be able to enjoy our passion.

[Julian Harber]

Regarding the Gloves I must admit I found the latest regs on this surprising as I though gloves were required in all classes so I contacted a very respected scrutineer and this is his reply:

Yep that's right, apparently it is meant to try and keep the cost down for new competitors.
But will you also advise them to read the specific venue SRs, because it also says overalls to K.9.1.4 (which are not FIA) but I know of at least 2 venues that will only accept FIA overalls, (Loton & Prescott)

With regad to extinguishers there is a light weight alternative with some of my rally pals rave about in how effective they are called `Fire Safety Stick' available from most motorsport suppliers and even amazon - they are suitable for ALL types of fire i.e. fuel, electrical etc

[Exminiman]

Yes really interesting and helpful, thanks. Sure the lack of clarity is putting potential competitors off, you need confidence that you are not going to be turned away.......

Re the noise regs, can I ask if anyone recommends any particular DB meter ?

I’ve got one from RS. I bought it as it’s to BS as I’m struggling to get my Corvette to meet noise regs and people said that the apps you get for phones aren’t accurate. Low and behold it reads exactly the same as the phone! Hillclimb noise regs are the most lenient so if you passed a rally or race test it’ll be fine.

Cheers, was looking at RS, but suppose as long as its not too marginal, a phone app could work .....

[hanlminiman]

But will you also advise them to read the specific venue SRs, because it also says overalls to K.9.1.4 (which are not FIA) but I know of at least 2 venues that will only accept FIA overalls, (Loton & Prescott)[/i][/b]

Julian
Surely, ALL venues should be consistent with their regss so why are Loton & Prescott so special? Just asking?
Was it not an individual Prescott Scrutineer who failed to pass at least 3 cars at the Mini Festival last year? To adapt the words in the famous 1969 film "Get the regs in line to encourage more entry level competitors." ie - Be consistent at every venue.
So checked the 2022 Blue book re overalls.
"9.1.2. Special Stage Rallies, Sprints and Hill Climbs:
FIA 8856-2000
FIA 1986 Standard"
To be totally frank and having witnessed the fire incident in the Paddock on Saturday, I believe personal safety is the main priority consideration There were a many offs on Saturday with luckily only vehicle damage. But not always.
In my opinion "personal safety is paramount" and I fully support the F1 jewellery view. A signet ring on my finger saved damage from impact damage but buckled.
If in doubt - stay safe.
It might be you next.
Cliff
ps Please make sure your fuel lines are E10 proof (sorry changed from E5 as it's very confusing but I think E5 is almost good but check companies as some are not quite as good - E10 is definitely not!) every year as the Orange Army in their Fireproof overalls and the "Emergency Response" teams are there to protect you. Mark has also mentioned his problems with fuel recently so please take note.

[Julian Harber]

Cliff - It is not just Precott and Loton that differ, as I try to do a wide selection of venues I had found others to have different requirements, for example racing FIA boots have never been a blue book requirement in the past for my class, although I have always worn them, but have had it a requirement in the Supplimentary Regs for a couple of venues. Like you say Safety is Paramount and having more than the minium works in every one's favour and can overcome individual venue oddities.

Re the Prescott minifest last year it is worthwhile considering if you were scurinteering a car and pass it, you then have accepted responsibily for it's safety to compete, therefore if an incident occurs that was a result of the cars unworthiness to race you are the one responsible. For example one of the mini `specials' even I would not have passed it - it had essential safety features missing that were quite clear in section K - it is rather important to have a bulkhead when the fuel tank is just behing you for example - how it then got in an event in Yorkshire was a stroke of luck by my smooth taking namesake Ha Ha

Yes the Fuel line Wake Up Call - I am prompted to change the flexible lines as they have been on since 2014 and when petrol was petrol they would have lasted years

[Tim Harber]

“Personal safety is paramount”
I’m intrigued as to where the line between personal safety and excitement lies with the MSA especially with say, pre 2nd World War stuff

If you follow your thinking through: No cars without FIA cages and full fire equipment. This is to include all cars pre-war and beyond, especially French blue ones. No bikers, obviously.

Some thoughts:
Many years ago ,a mate of a colleague was pissed at home after an evening out , tripped up and hit his head on a coffee table , knocked himself out and vomited which caused him to suffocate and die. This made me think that if a coffee table can get you, anything can

The hillclimb regs are a nightmare, worse than circuit stuff. No consistency and random application of rules according to club, so I share your worries Trevor. At least I have Julian to hold my hand in such matters

The MSA are bad enough: When we built my blue car, the published copy of the blue book stated that pre-1961 cars should have a plumbed in fire extinguisher and post 1961 cars could have a hand held one. When I queried this with the MSA, they stated it was - a misprint

MSA rules, then, as now I suspect (too lazy to look it up) say that all fuel and similar lines that go through passenger compartment should have covering over the metal. When I queried this with our local scrutineer, he said “it was open to interpretation”, as pretty much all the cars I had seen before just had the bare metal lines
Scrutineers can look at basic safety stuff but what happens on pre-1st World War 1 stuff for instance, I am guessing they are not liable for any mishaps that might occur as that is surely down to the driver/ owner of the car or am I wrong? If you want to bodge a car to look safe, it’s not that difficult for goodness sake

You will be glad to know that as part of the rich pattern of my life, I got pulled in at the sprint I did recently at Cadwell and had a scrutineer check the thickness of the polycarbonate windows which proves I am not a thieving, cheating bastard that you might have mistaken me for….
Cadwell scrutineer by tim.harber, on Flickr