Next project - ‘62 997 Austin Cooper

[Costafortune]

Were they new studs or originals? I'm wary of anything new these days. Assuming the correct length, were the other 12 nuts/studs OK? If in doubt you can use something like Wurth green threadlocker with the correct torque. The nuts will be hard to unwind though but you won't be taking the wheels off every 5 minutes.

[Dearg1275]

Were they new studs or originals? I'm wary of anything new these days. Assuming the correct length, were the other 12 nuts/studs OK? If in doubt you can use something like Wurth green threadlocker with the correct torque. The nuts will be hard to unwind though but you won't be taking the wheels off every 5 minutes.

The studs were those fitted to the better quality Minispares brake discs. The rears were fine, the right hand front needed some tightening to get to torque but very little.

I had a delivery of an appropriate loctite today.

On reflection my trial run should have been shorter. I might have picked up the problem before possible disaster. As they say ‘let the bairn play with the knife it’ll learn’.

D

[Exminiman]

I have a selfish interest in this subject as i am due to install a new set of MS Rosepetals on my 1071 .. I re-read your disaster and me still unsure of what went wrong ..are you saying the MS Rose-Petal wheel Nuts are inadequate in thread length .. did you torque all your Wheel Nuts up the same & if so what are the other wheel nuts security tightness like after that run.
Whatever the issue pleased that you are all safe.

As I tried to say it is impossible to know what went wrong. The Rose Petal nuts are perfectly fine. I am just looking for ways to improve the length of thread engaged which is down to the stud and not the nuts. I am probably being totally belts and braces and will more than likely look to doing the same for my other cars that have sleeve nuts. I just shook me up a bit and I’m looking for a greater margin of comfort. Some race proven studs look the ticket as far as My peace of mind is concerned. My routine is to use a torque wrench by I think I have just entered a paranoid spanner bashing period. I’ll probably be checking before leaving each visit to Tesco’s or fit some of those pointy things you see on trucks.
D

Glad all is well, helped having a young person on hand to laugh at it all

So, you are ditching the spacers, fitting some longer Swifty studs and having hubs and or disks machined to take care of any clearance and fixing nuts with threadlocker....?

Just asking as intend to fit some of these at some point,

looking of your photo of the disk on the grass verge, studs do look bit short for the spacers, dont they ?

[Dearg1275]

Glad all is well, helped having a young person on hand to laugh at it all

So, you are ditching the spacers, fitting some longer Swifty studs and having hubs and or disks machined to take care of any clearance and fixing nuts with threadlocker....?

Just asking as intend to fit some of these at some point,

looking of your photo of the disk on the grass verge, studs do look bit short for the spacers, dont they ?

The studs look shorter in the photo than they really are. The insert/spacer (call it what you will) is bored to accept the sleeve nut . There is just a 2mm thickness at the bottom of the bore where the hole size drops to 3/8 so that the insert is centred on the drive flange by the studs. This means the stud is effectively shortened by 2mm, a bit more actually as the nut must not bottom out on the insert or the wheel would not clamp up. I’ve crunched all the dimensions and that necessary clearance is there.

Your summary of the plan is about right. I’m not sure about the thread locker. I may use it on just a pair of studs opposite each other. A bit of a controlled experiment and see how the control group compares - whether they loosen or not. Committed now anyway as the discs and flanges are up the road at the engineers. They will be done on Monday. They are a great bunch. The bulk of their work is heavy machining for the off shore industry but are more than happy to do small different stuff.

D

[roger mcnab]

hi d
well you were lucky the nuts did not bind inthe holes by chance sometimes they pick up in the holes and seem to be tight but then come loose and fun times like you had i have had that happen with my laser with some of the mags that were supplied by a tyre place here the real ford mags for the laser have taper nuts
all these parts are made to manufacture tolerances which can vary and cause problems as not all get checked
cheers roger

[Dearg1275]

As a little light relief while waiting for the machining of discs and drive flange I thought to investigate the unpleasant gear change. In all forward gears, even with a stationary box, the change is an effort and feels like you are forcing over a hump, some weird reluctance to move.

After checking out all the vaguely accessible stuff, I decided to get the engine ready to lift out once the car has front wheels again. Hopefully I will find the problem before it gets to splitting the engine from gearbox. Maybe at the speed change gate end.

It seems like a case of two steps backwards before another three steps backwards. This wee beastie is certainly digging its heals in about going out into the big world. It ain’t going to win. KEC has an appointment with a rolling road in eleven days time and needs a thousand miles on the engine first.

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There’s nothing like working against the clock for adding a little zest to life. Here’s fingers crossed.

D

[CMC]

Re the wheel nuts coming loose: that might be caused by the studs not pressed all the way into the (new) flange. When I've fitted new studs to a flange, I've found it sometimes necessary to use a steel wheel (or a big washer) and tighten the nuts firmly to pull the studs in fully. When fitting an alloy wheel, the torque might be too low to accomplish that.

Good luck with fixing it before the deadline! Once you've overcome the hurdles, you can finally enjoy your hard work!

[Dearg1275]

Re the wheel nuts coming loose: that might be caused by the studs not pressed all the way into the (new) flange. When I've fitted new studs to a flange, I've found it sometimes necessary to use a steel wheel (or a big washer) and tighten the nuts firmly to pull the studs in fully. When fitting an alloy wheel, the torque might be too low to accomplish that.

Good luck with fixing it before the deadline! Once you've overcome the hurdles, you can finally enjoy your hard work!

That had crossed my mind. To that end is did an experiment with the dead brake disc. Fitting a new stud I pulled it in with a steel wheel nut incrementally with a torque wrench. 10,20,30 and finally 40 ftlbs. The stud was still not seated at 30 and it took the full 40 to get it home. Add some frictional resistance from the weight of the car on the sleeve nut and from the face of the nut and washer and it is easy to see how this could be an issue.

As I have said before, in retrospect all is possible but nothing is sure. It’s just another maybe.

D

[Dearg1275]

Right the brake discs and drive flanges are back and here is the belt and braces approach to being sure everything is seated properly.

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Then the drive flange torqued down to 40 ftlbs and screwed in the counter sinks before releasing the wheel nuts.

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The centre boss has been machined back to allow the Rose Petals to seat fully.

And these are the fancy Swiftune studs.

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D

[Dearg1275]

Then there is the calliper interference to sort. Angle grinder and cutting disc forwards. What would we do without that bit of kit?

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It felt a bit scary but taking metal away incrementally and checking the wheel for clearance frequently and it was not too bad. No porosity to be seen. Original Lockheed casting mind.

45 thou clearance as a result.

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And this is the big advantage of the Swiftune studs. You can see where they are and the none threaded nose certainly helps twisting things together.

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And a better image of the reduction of the drive flange.

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KEC should be on all four wheels tomorrow. Then I can pull t’engine and try to find out what’s up wi t’gearbox.

D

[Polarsilver]

Your a bloody good Swiftune Wheel Stud Salesman .. you have convinced me to buy a set of their Wheelstuds ..Swiftune will be putting their prices up again by another 10% so i better get my order in quick

Did you also fit their Rosepetal Wheel Studs on the Rear ?
i still dont understand why you have machined the original Hub thickness down ?

[Dearg1275]

Did you also fit their Rosepetal Wheel Studs on the Rear ?
i still dont understand why you have machined the original Hub thickness down ?

If you lay the drive flange in the Rose Petal you can feel a slight rock on the flange side to side. There is an internal radius on the drive flange hub that just fouls the bore of the wheel (I had used some marker blue to show where the tightness was but didn’t take a photo, sorry). Really just a whisker but enough to stop the wheel seating flat. Much better to take a bit off the flange so any future wheel will fit than try to modify a heap of Rose Petals that may be fitted in future. A gnats whisker is also needed of the bevelled edge of the disc and flange where it faces the wheel. It didn’t seem to need this on mine but it was so close to making an interference that I decided on a belt and braces approach.

Quite why there is this discrepancy I don’t understand. My understanding is that the Rose Petals are made to the original spec. Maybe areas of none critical machining of the brake disc and drive flange have changed down the years.

I have replacement studs for the rear and will get those fitted once all the other headaches are a thing of the past.

D

[roger mcnab]

d i was reading in my latest mini magazine i think it was tim harbour saying about the counter sunk screws not being made correctly and sitting proud on the wheel flanges as you know that some drive flanges are held with screws and others with bolts could be a problem maybe
cheers roger

[Dearg1275]

d i was reading in my latest mini magazine i think it was tim harbour saying about the counter sunk screws not being made correctly and sitting proud on the wheel flanges as you know that some drive flanges are held with screws and others with bolts could be a problem maybe
cheers roger

Something else to check!

D

[Costafortune]

I'd be tempted to knock the studs out again, and use some engineers blue on the wheel and hub to make sure it really is sitting flat. Do the sleeve bolt threads fully engage with the stud threads? I'm sure it will be fine now. I think if you regularly stop and check the torque you'll be OK but I like to use Wurth green thread locker.

I had some original Rosepetals from a 997 I scrapped in 1987. Gave them a Halfords rattle can resto and put them on a car. The bastard wheel nuts were coming loose because the alloy (magnesium?) was so soft with age and being compressed.

I think I binned them after that.

[wild_willy]

The rosepetals I purchased about 9 years ago came with 2 sets of nuts of different lengths, washers and alloy spacers. The longer ones on the front with the spacer go on a full 9 turns before the washer meets the wheel. I just tried the shorter nut on the front and it only goes on 5 turns. Probably not quite enough.
I have never had an issue with wheels coming loose. The shorter nuts are used on the rear with the Cooper S spacer wheel drums.

Do the current rosepetals come with 2 sets of nuts now or is this the problem?

[Dearg1275]

The Rose Petals still come as you say. The longer nuts are for use with the alloy spacer/insert. If you use the spacer at the rear you still need to use the longer nuts. The spacer is to enable fitting to a standard “S” front set up without modifications. It has bores to accommodate the longer nut thus regaining most, but not all, of the available thread that would otherwise be masked by the “spacer”.

My issue was not the wrong choice of nuts. I used spacers front and back and long nuts all round. I did this so there could be no confusion over what goes where at the road side in the dark etc.

D

[Dearg1275]

Back to the gearbox issue. It turned out to be two things compounding each other to make for a very difficult gear change. This when the engine was still so not a clutch problem.

The first thing I noticed was that the end of the 1st 2nd rod was canted over to the rear and was not nesting nicely with the other rods.

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It was being held over by the 1-2 selector fork. This was allowing the claws of the selector gate to travel too far and block the movement of the rods. It could have been a twisted rod but a couple of spare rods produced the same result. It seems that the drilling for the pinch bolt in the fork was slightly out of line. Slackening it off allowed the rods to nest properly.

Not having a selection of forks to play about with to find a combination that worked, fettling was called for. By removing about 40thou from the edges of the fork that face the hub the rods moved over into the corrected position and the claws were no longer getting in the way.

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There was still enough clearance on the hub gear teeth.

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The other issue proved to be over strong springs in the selector hub. These were of a much stiffer thicker wire than replacements I raided from a scrap hub.

Perhaps not an ideal way to go about things but the box is now pleasant to use rather than a complete pig.

With that sorted and all four wheels firmly where they should be I’ve put about 500 miles on the engine and it’s freeing up nicely. Next stop the rolling road at Southam Mini Metro Centre.

D

[roger mcnab]

hi d it doesnt take much to muck up a good thing good that it was sorted easily
cheers roger mcnab

[Dearg1275]

Well that was an experience!

KEC had some 600 miles on the engine so a gentle drive down to Southams would add enough miles for it to be put through its paces on the rollers.

All was fine until south of Doncaster on the A1 (avoiding those lethal managed motorways). Heavy goods traffic in lane one and lane two and suddenly oily emulsion on the screen and it was tipping it down too. A glance at the oil gauge showed the usually healthy pressure dropping. Too fast for comfort. Ahead a coned of lay-by. Would I make it before the oil light came on? Phew!

Rain hammering down as well as trucks I was more than glad I was not on the M1. Bonnet up on an oil soaked engine bay. A solder joint on the oil gauge line had failed. With only top up quantities of oil on board there was just enough to get oil to show on the bottom of the dip stick.

A self tapping screw borrowed from elsewhere on the car plugged the oils escape route. The last pressure I had dared look at was sub 50psi. I now had no gauge and would have to trust the oil warning light that comes on at just over 25 psi. The light went out. The problem was now getting back onto the A1. The traffic had not eased and I really didn’t want to make a racing start to join the traffic. In the end a truck driver saw I was in trouble and backed off enough to let me go. Generally they are pretty courteous drivers.

Quarter of a mile to the next junction, lucky, maybe you can think of it that way, all the time trying to balance a reasonable speed against the lack of oil in the gearbox. At least the lamp was staying off. Then it was seven miles to the next possible petrol station. A painful crawl hogging the gutter to let folk pass. I don’t understand how most drivers just don’t want to overtake or just don’t know how. Perhaps they just enjoyed the spectacle of a 60 year old car in trouble. I had quite an audience.

Of course there was no straight mineral oil on offer just semi synthetic at ridiculous prices. Well if the engine wasn’t run in /wrecked by now too bad. It swallowed half the five litres of rip off best and I was on my way again but oh so late for my rolling road slot.

In the end I don’t think Colin and Rod even noticed I was late (20min) another car was on the rollers. Once that was cleared and KEC’s wheel dropped into place Colin spent a fair while chasing an apparent air leak at idle. Nothing was found but the idle was unstable. Nonetheless we pressed on and the day ended on a good note. With a single change of needles KEC was producing a solid 58 plus bhp at the wheels. As it has a helical box and drop gears that equates to around 82 bhp at the flywheel. Not displeasing for a 997 engine stretched to 1082. I had hoped to be in Cooper S territory and got there in good measure. It drives very nicely too. What is more it hardly uses any oil.

Lessons learnt - always carry enough oil to fill the sump and don’t trust soldered joints.

D